Responder rebid dilemma

[Liversidge]

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I had this South hand this evening. I have been taught that when 5-5 you always respond in the higher ranked suit the higher ranked suit. Here I cannot respond both suits as this would 4th suit forcing - I am too weak for that. A rebid of 2NT would show 10 - 12 points balanced and I have an unbalanced hand. The only option seems to be to bid one of my suits and then make a preference rebid of 2♦. If that's correct, why not bid the better suit first time round, here 1♥?

[Cyberyeti]

You can play 3♥ as this sort of thing if that's what you agree with your partner but it's dangerous on a potential 2 suited misfit. If you don't play 2♥ GF, it's easier, 2♥ followed by 3♥over 2N, 3♦ over 3♣, pass 2♠ or raise if you feel adventurous.

[dsLawsd]

I prefer to play 2 ♥ here as invitation or invite+ so that it is a 1 round force. You can then react to partner's next call.

 

If you bid 1 heart the first time you would not be able to bid 2 spades since that WOULD be a game force. A few well-documented long term partners might have a specialized bid that shows this hand with one bid.

 

Every method has a drawback/compromise somewhere...

[Stephen Tu]

You bid 1 spade because partner will rebid in NT reasonably often, and it's going to be a lot easier to show both majors 5-5 inv if you bid a spade. If you bid hearts then spades twice partner will think you are 5-6, also there is no way to get out below game.

 

If partner rebids 2c, basically you are a bit stuck, with a bit stronger could try 3h. These hands are why some people play "reverse Flannery by responder", jump shift showing 5+spades 4+h of various ranges, but obviously losing whatever you are currently using JS for.

 

[Liversidge]

You can play 3♥ as this sort of thing if that's what you agree with your partner but it's dangerous on a potential 2 suited misfit. If you don't play 2♥ GF, it's easier, 2♥ followed by 3♥over 2N, 3♦ over 3♣, pass 2♠ or raise if you feel adventurous.

Is my first bid (1♠) correct?

[Tramticket]

The only option seems to be to bid one of my suits and then make a preference rebid of 2♦. If that's correct, why not bid the better suit first time round, here 1♥?

 

You are right, the general advice is to bid the higher ranking suit first with 5-5. This is a very good example of the type of hand where this doesn't work very well. The reason to bid the higher suit first is so that you can bid the lower suit next and receive preference without raising the level of bidding. This is great advice if your hand is worth two bids, but this is clearly not the case with this misfitting nine-count.

 

I would respond 1♥ here, not because your hearts are stronger, but because this gives you the best chance of finding a fit in either major. Partner will raise hearts with a four-card suit - and often with a three-card suit. Partner will bid a four-card spade suit. You will find all nine-card major suit fits and most eight-card heart fits. Compare this with a one spade response: you find most eight-card spade fits but will fail to find any eight or nine-card heart fits unless partner has reversing values. Partner might have a 0454 shape and you miss a nine-card heart fit. Partner might have 2461 shape and rebid two diamonds over your one spade response - again missing a nine-card heart fit.

 

Is my first bid (1♠) correct?

No, not in my opinion. My advice is to respond the higher suit with 5-5 if you are worth two bids, but to respond one heart with 5-5 in the majors and worth only one bid.

[Tramticket]

You bid 1 spade because partner will rebid in NT reasonably often, and it's going to be a lot easier to show both majors 5-5 inv if you bid a spade. If you bid hearts then spades twice partner will think you are 5-6, also there is no way to get out below game.

 

The NT strength matters. I think that Liversidge plays a weak NT [Liversidge: please confirm NT range], so a 1NT rebid would be 15-17 (say). I am comfortable responding one heart and continuing two spades (which shows 5-5 for me) over a 15-17 NT rebid and hope to find a playable game. With a weaker hand (say a six-count) I would settle for partner playing 1NT.

[Liversidge]

The NT strength matters. I think that Liversidge plays a weak NT [Liversidge: please confirm NT range], so a 1NT rebid would be 15-17 (say). I am comfortable responding one heart and continuing two spades (which shows 5-5 for me) over a 15-17 NT rebid and hope to find a playable game. With a weaker hand (say a six-count) I would settle for partner playing 1NT.

 

Yes we play 12-14 with 15-17 rebid.

[Tramticket]

Yes we play 12-14 with 15-17 rebid.

 

Then I definitely recommend a one heart response.

 

Now imagine that partner's hand is ♠Q10853 ♥AQJ96 ♦4 ♣53 and you are faced with the auction 1♦, 1♥; 2♣ ... Now you can't give preference to diamonds (false preference on a singleton is not great), you don't want to pass (leaving partner in a 4-2 "fit") so I would recommend fibbing about your strength and bidding 2NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would go with 1S, and the way the auction developed, bid 2D.

You could also say, the suit quatlity matters, and treat it as 5+H and 4S,

and bid hearts, ..., accepting, that you may miss the spade fit.

 

The issues you encountered is a well known issue, and to solve it,

some play conventional methods, like Reverse Flannery.

 

See

http://bridgemagic.net/2014/06/reverse-flannery-convention-6-21/

or

http://www.advinbridge.com/this-week-in-bridge/257

 

Keep in mind, that this is only an option for regular partnerships

and it is debatebal, if this is a N/B topic.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

It would never occur to me to respond 1♥, I would always respond 1♠, but I play 4SF F1 not FG and have some other system peculiarities that help here (like I can show a hand that's not going to game and 5-5 over a 2♦ rebid, and we can drop in 3♦/♥/♠ easily).

[nekthen]

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I had this South hand this evening. I have been taught that when 5-5 you always respond in the higher ranked suit the higher ranked suit. Here I cannot respond both suits as this would 4th suit forcing - I am too weak for that. A rebid of 2NT would show 10 - 12 points balanced and I have an unbalanced hand. The only option seems to be to bid one of my suits and then make a preference rebid of 2♦. If that's correct, why not bid the better suit first time round, here 1♥?

 

I agree 1♠. My first question is does partner raise 1♠ with a 3154 hand? I would and with 2245 I would open or rebid the appropriate level of NT so partner is either 1354 or 12(21) 55 or more minor cards or possibly 1444 and unable to rebid 1N. Partner should take any excuse to open or rebid NT rather than get trapped into rebid of 2♣, because we have many better gadgets available after 1N.

So I now bid 2♥ F1 not GF.

Take away a Q and you have a real problem. I still bid 1♠ but will rebid 2♦

Even worse, swap your minor suits now you have to pass and leave p in a probable 42 fit and hope opps come to the rescue!

[Tramticket]

It would never occur to me to respond 1♥, I would always respond 1♠, but I play 4SF F1 not FG and have some other system peculiarities that help here (like I can show a hand that's not going to game and 5-5 over a 2♦ rebid, and we can drop in 3♦/♥/♠ easily).

 

You are making two bids and heading to the three-level opposite a lot of misfits. Imagine that you hold a real stinker: ♠Q10853 ♥QJ963 ♦4 ♣53. I assume that you are responding? But are you really proposing to make two bids and find yourself at the three level opposite a minimum misfit? It must be right to make the bid which gives you the best shot at finding a playable fit without needing to make a second bid - this is clearly 1♥ (particularly in a weak NT context, where a 1NT rebid is less likely to occur and if it does, it is likely to have some play given that you hold at least half of the deck).

[Cyberyeti]

You are making two bids and heading to the three-level opposite a lot of misfits. Imagine that you hold a real stinker: ♠Q10853 ♥QJ963 ♦4 ♣53. I assume that you are responding? But are you really proposing to make two bids and find yourself at the three level opposite a minimum misfit? It must be right to make the bid which gives you the best shot at finding a playable fit without needing to make a second bid - this is clearly 1♥ (particularly in a weak NT context, where a 1NT rebid is less likely to occur and if it does, it is likely to have some play given that you hold at least half of the deck).

 

I'm getting out of this auction much faster with the stinker, responding 1♥ doesn't help as partner will bypass spades and bid 1N even with 4 spades. Over 1♦-1♠-1N I can bid 2♥ to show exactly this sort of hand.

[Tramticket]

I'm getting out of this auction much faster with the stinker, responding 1♥ doesn't help as partner will bypass spades and bid 1N even with 4 spades. Over 1♦-1♠-1N I can bid 2♥ to show exactly this sort of hand.

 

But over 1♦, 1♠, 2♣? False preference? Maybe partner is 1354 distribution and would have raised hearts, given the chance?

[pescetom]

I'm getting out of this auction much faster with the stinker, responding 1♥ doesn't help as partner will bypass spades and bid 1N even with 4 spades. Over 1♦-1♠-1N I can bid 2♥ to show exactly this sort of hand.

 

You're both advocating some fairly un-natural sequences here considering that this is Novice/Beginner :)

Maybe it would be useful to take a step back to basics.

The natural response with this hand is spades, and the natural action for opener holding 4-card spades is to show them after 1♦ - 1♥, not bypass.

The problem posted derives more from application of a convention, 4th Suit Game Forcing, than from any inherent limitation of natural bidding. I think most of us learned to play without that convention.

In any case, the standard second response with a weak hand in misfit is to raise the opening suit, in this case ♦. Partner will get the discouraging message, but if he is at maximum for his wide-ranging bid sequence he may still seek game or a better partial.

[Cyberyeti]

You're both advocating some fairly un-natural sequences here considering that this is Novice/Beginner :)

Maybe it would be useful to take a step back to basics.

The natural response with this hand is spades, and the natural action for opener holding 4-card spades is to show them after 1♦ - 1♥, not bypass.

The problem posted derives more from application of a convention, 4th Suit Game Forcing, than from any inherent limitation of natural bidding. I think most of us learned to play without that convention.

In any case, the standard second response with a weak hand in misfit is to raise the opening suit, in this case ♦. Partner will get the discouraging message, but if he is at maximum for his wide-ranging bid sequence he may still seek game or a better partial.

 

It's actually very standard here playing Acol of a certain vintage that if you don't open 1M with 4M4m strong NT, you bypass the major. We can do this almost with impunity as partner will almost always bid again (our 1N rebid is 15-bad 19). This means 1♦-1♥-1♠ is always unbalanced and unless 4144 always 5-4 which makes subsequent bidding much easier. If you habitually play strong NT partner passes a 1N rebid more so you are less likely to want to bypass the spades.

[Tramticket]

It's actually very standard here playing Acol of a certain vintage that if you don't open 1M with 4M4m strong NT, you bypass the major. We can do this almost with impunity as partner will almost always bid again (our 1N rebid is 15-bad 19). This means 1♦-1♥-1♠ is always unbalanced and unless 4144 always 5-4 which makes subsequent bidding much easier. If you habitually play strong NT partner passes a 1N rebid more so you are less likely to want to bypass the spades.

Here we differ :)

 

I will always open 1M with 4-4 and will never have a reason to by-pass a four-card major.

 

But I agree that 1D, 1H; 1S is always unbalanced.

[Cyberyeti]

Here we differ :)

 

I will always open 1M with 4-4 and will never have a reason to by-pass a four-card major.

 

But I agree that 1D, 1H; 1S is always unbalanced.

 

You play a different age of Acol to me, I was brought up with Crowhurst's books where you open the minor.

[pescetom]

You play a different age of Acol to me, I was brought up with Crowhurst's books where you open the minor.

 

Italian 4-card "Lungo Corto" would bid 4-card suits up the line, rigorously.

But yes I can see that playing weak NT some natural developments may not be optimal.

[cherdano]

You're both advocating some fairly un-natural sequences here considering that this is Novice/Beginner :)

... the natural action for opener holding 4-card spades is to show them after 1♦ - 1♥, not bypass.

This is considered the natural thing to do West of the Atlantic, but in the UK everyone seems to rebid 1N with a balanced hand - it's both what experts do, and 2hat beginner/intermediate are taught to do.

 

Obviously there is a logical reason for this difference- bypassing 1S to show a strong NT is more attractive for various reasons than doing so to show a weak NT.

[mikeh]

More than 40 years ago, my then partner and I were trying out 2/1 GF based on a book by Max Hardy, who advocated that 4SF was gf.

 

I asked him, at a regional, how one dealt with 5-5 hands less than gf, and his answer was 'don't worry about it, they never really come up'.

 

I never did think highly of him as a bridge theorist: his books on 2/1 were only pastiches of ideas from other players (in fairness, I don't think he ever claimed otherwise) but that glib and inaccurate dismissal of a legitimate problem bothered me.

 

As for the solution, in standard American (and I appreciate that the OP doesn't play SA), it would be heresy to recommend any response than 1S initially, and I say that as having played, in a 2/1 context, virtually every 1N opening range imaginable (but not, shudder, 16-18 or 15-18).

 

Now, there are gadgets: using a 2H response to show 5+ spades and 4+ hearts, too weak to invite over a 1N rebid, is quite common, but obviously wrong here: we have a comfortable gf over a 1N rebid, showing 15-17.

 

Every bidding method has 'seams'...areas where the system simply cannot adequately handle specific hand-types. When that arises, one has to decide on the least bad distortion. Here, whether that is 2H or 2D I leave to individual taste.

 

The more complex the system, assuming competent design, the fewer the problem hands, but no method yet devised is free from the issue. In the Novice and Beginner forum one will find more of such problems than in the expert forum, for example, because experts tend to play more complex and more numerous agreements than do beginners and novices.

 

I respectfully suggest, however, that the more knowledgeable plyers refrain from advocating idiosyncratic 'solutions'.

 

Recommending a 1H response does a serious disservice. It is, in any event, profoundly flawed on fairly straight-forward theoretical grounds. Even if it were close to being sound (and it is not, imo), it should be avoided simply because it is not how the vast majority of competent players bid. Novices and beginners need to learn the basics. Then, once and if they get to where they can intelligently customize methods, they start from a sound basis.