ATB new partnership missed nearly 100% slam

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&s=skjth4dk7542ckqt4&n=sh532daq9863ca982&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1d(4+%20)2d(Michaels%2C%20unspecified%20strength)3s(Splinter%20%5Bno%20specific%20strength%20agreements%5D)4hpp4sp5dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

IMP teams, with no sophisticated agreements.

 

Also I can't find the hand records now - it's possible S had the JD. Would that affect your view?

[TylerE]

Not sure there's really any blame to assign here. Hard to find Q♣ anywhere on the auction and that's a two trick difference. Whatever N is hoping for, S has basically the worst possible hand.

[gszes]

I have no heartache with the bidding through 4s but I cannot fathom a reason why south did not bid 4n instead of 5d. If 4s was not a void I am shocked and if responder has 2 aces how bad can 6d be? Responder is still trying for slam after our pass of 4h so some extra values has to be assumed.

[Cyberyeti]

I have no heartache with the bidding through 4s but I cannot fathom a reason why south did not bid 4n instead of 5d. If 4s was not a void I am shocked and if responder has 2 aces how bad can 6d be? Responder is still trying for slam after our pass of 4h so some extra values has to be assumed.

 

Unfortunately partner's hand was void, Qx, AQJxxxx, Axxx and it was no play.

 

For us, the splinter is GF so pass over 4♥ is forcing, not sure about that in a new partnership

[gordontd]

Unfortunately partner's hand was void, Qx, AQJxxxx, Axxx and it was no play.

??

[Cyberyeti]

??

 

Sorry thought N had ♣Q not S

 

Is it impossible N has a stiff ♠A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)

[cherdano]

Why are 5♦ and 6♦ the only options for South over 4♠? Is it forbidden to make a cooperative move with 5♣?

[Tramticket]

South has only 8 working points. Difficult for him to do more.

[TylerE]

Sorry thought N had ♣Q not S

 

Is it impossible N has a stiff ♠A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)

 

Does N even have to have A♦ here? If he had, say, KJ in ♥ and Qxxxx in ♦ doesn't he bid the same way?

[cherdano]

South has only 8 working points. Difficult for him to do more.

Is it really so hard to envision that the heart shortness might be useful?

[cherdano]

Does N even have to have A♦ here? If he had, say, KJ in ♥ and Qxxxx in ♦ doesn't he bid the same way?

No he does not.

[The_Badger]

The second splinter of 4♠ is not just saying void, and let's bid game, it is saying slam is in the offing, though how they then reach 6♦ is open to question. Though it is up to South to envisage that his partner has some 10-15 HCPs (or something like that) to splinter in a minor in the first place, and work out where those points are likely to be.

 

He has an extra ♦, useful cards in the unbid suit ♣s and a singleton ♥. 5♦ is a lazy bid. Both 4NT and 5♣ seem much better.

 

And yes, there are plenty of hands that you can give North where 6♦ will never make, but I believe South is at fault here for not trusting his partner and making some forward gesture, even with his aceless hand.

[pescetom]

Is it impossible N has a stiff ♠A here though ? (particularly if your splinters are undiscussed)

It is for me, particularly if splinters *are* undiscussed.

For the rest, I agree with gszes and The_Badger.

[Jinksy]

Why are 5♦ and 6♦ the only options for South over 4♠? Is it forbidden to make a cooperative move with 5♣?

 

Woops, right. Changed the poll.

[Cyberyeti]

Does N even have to have A♦ here? If he had, say, KJ in ♥ and Qxxxx in ♦ doesn't he bid the same way?

 

My remark was connected to bidding 4N and getting a 2 ace response, which he doesn't get with that.

[rmnka447]

Are N/S playing Unusual vs. Unusual? The poll choices include one where 2 ♠ is indicated as forcing. In U vs. U, 2 ♠ would indicate ♦ and values.

 

In any case, if you have a forcing bid available and choose to splinter, you must not only be showing values but a distributional feature as well. With poor or mediocre values and distribution, you can just pick a level of ♦ and bid it.

 

When North bids 4 ♠, it shows absolute control of ♠ and must show a pretty good hand for ♦ because it indicates some slam interest (else 5 ♦). Tramticket pointed out that South has only 8 working which is true. But South also doesn't have 2 Quick losers in any suit outside of ♠ and North has already shown complete control of the ♠ suit.

 

North can't bid as shown with an A-less hand outside of ♠. Given at least one A in ♣, ♦ or ♥, 5 ♦ must have some sort of play. If North has 2 or more, than slam should be playable. So whether 4 NT is A asking, Last Train/waiting, or 2 places to play, I think South has to bid it and also show some slam interest.

[LBengtsson]

North is bidding aggressive. Must have good better fit. Spade void. South with heart stiff must bid rkcb. 2 out of 3 aces make slam a good call.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

if North only needs a heart shortage, he knowes, that South has one, the opponents have told him,

that they have at least a 9 card fit.

5C by South would show the Ace of clubs / first round control, at least this is my take on standard,

so South does not have a 5C bid.

... I would not have bid 4NT as South, I guess this showes, that am a chicken in the slam zone, but

given the knowledge of the heart shortage, North could have bid 6C himself, it would have taken similar

courage as the 4NT bid.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[cherdano]

5C by South would show the Ace of clubs / first round control, at least this is my take on standard,

so South does not have a 5C bid.

It's certainly not standard. Indeed, why would anyone play an agreement that doesn't allow South to cooperate with a slam try, and that doesn't allow South to show useful values in partner's likely side suit? Even the most religious first-round control bidder should show some flexibility here.

[dsLawsd]

South should bid 6♦ over 4♠. He has the world's fair after such a strong sequence by North.

[heart76]

The splinter is GF, you need an agreement for interference after GF bids.

I think there are several "standard" methods.

One general rule I have is that sacrifices shall not be left in undoubled.

Pass = lack A in their suit. Forcing.

X = A in their suit. Can be left in depending on the overall evaluation at the actual bid level.

4♠ in the given auction = cue for both ♥A and A/K in ♠.

4NT = rkcb

5♦ = give up

 

4♠ from N is probably showing the void and a sort of last train for slam, where he seems to have got that S has 0-1 ♥.

Difficult for S not to cooperate at this point, especially since N is still unlimited.

[nekthen]

Hi,

 

if North only needs a heart shortage, he knows, that South has one, the opponents have told him,

that they have at least a 9 card fit.

 

North may fear that EW

have 5422 opposite 3433

While a 9 card ♥ fit is likely, I would not bet the farm on it. I think S has not appreciated the value of his club holding given the very likely secondary club support from partner. I bid 4N just in case partner can show me 3 aces as a grand then seems very good. Though I doubt p can have the A♥, maybe he intends to bid 6♦ if I cannot do anything better than bid 5♦

[cherdano]

I think it's worth explaining what is wrong with all of the following replies:

Not sure there's really any blame to assign here. Hard to find Q♣ anywhere on the auction and that's a two trick difference. Whatever N is hoping for, S has basically the worst possible hand.

 

 

South has only 8 working points. Difficult for him to do more.

 

 

Hi,

 

if North only needs a heart shortage, he knowes, that South has one, the opponents have told him,

that they have at least a 9 card fit.

5C by South would show the Ace of clubs / first round control, at least this is my take on standard,

so South does not have a 5C bid.

... I would not have bid 4NT as South, I guess this showes, that am a chicken in the slam zone, but

given the knowledge of the heart shortage, North could have bid 6C himself, it would have taken similar

courage as the 4NT bid.

 

It's really wrong to think of the South hand as "8 working point". First of all, it's important to visualise partner's hand. He certainly has 5+diamonds, almost certainly a spade void, and the fact that he did not double 4♥ suggests he does not have heart wastage. Given that we just need the two minor suit aces for slam to be excellent (no matter whether partner is 0256 or 0355 or 0265 etc.), and that partner made two slam tries, we have to cooperate! In fact, 6♦ is undoubtedly a better bid than 5♦.

 

But, you say, we have 4 hcp wasted, and only 8 working hcp? Well, let's look at this from partner's point of view. Say he is - xxx Axxxx Axxxx. He needs quite a lot from us! He needs us to have shortness (very likely, but not certain - maybe East is operating with a double fit and a strong preference for a heart lead), ♦K, ♣K, and ♣Q. He also needs us to have a 5th diamond, or the ♦Q. We have all of those things! We have three out of the three working cards partner is hoping for!

 

There is, indeed, a way to find out about the ♣Q - South can look at his hand! Partner has a spade void, he doesn't have too many hearts, we have 5 diamonds (making it unlikely that he has more than 6 diamonds) - he is almost certain to have at least four clubs. KQ in partner's side suit isn't just 5 hcp, it's two working cards. And when we may have to take ruffs in both hands, that extra trump is golden.

We could be KQx Ax KJxx xxxx (also 8 working hcp!), and partner, with - xx AQxxxx Axxx, will be very lucky to make 5♦. (Now, I am stretching my point here a little, as this hand should double 4♥ if we are in a forcing pass, but still - many hands with, say, Qxxx in clubs and 3154 may make a forcing pass. And it's a first time partnership - with a good partner, uncertainty about forcing pass is more likely than partner making two slam tries without a suitable hand.)

[Tramticket]

Cherdano, I take on board and accept much of what you are arguing.

 

I am still struggling a bit though: North makes a splinter bid and you look at you hand to see a minimum opening in an ace-less hand with the worst possible holding KJT in the splinter suit. I agree that, once East bids hearts, the opponents seem to have a double fit in the majors and we are likely to have a double fit in the minors. But slam still looks a long way off and it is difficult to see that South can co-operate at this stage. [side question: since we are in a game-forcing auction, is a 5♦ bid weaker than a pass?].

 

North now makes a second try with 4♠. At this stage, North also knows that we have a double fit in the minors and that I have a heart shortage and we have no wastage there. North also knows that we have first-round control in three suits and second-round control in the fourth suit. North knows that we have at least a ten-card diamond fit and knows that (even if there is wastage in spades), most of our points must be in the minors.

 

What more is North looking for and how much worse could our hand be? I guess that it is possible to construct KJT4 K 7542 KQT4?

[mdgraham]

I seem to remember North's diamonds being AJ10954 or something like that.

 

My partner bid 3♣ over the Michaels cue of 2♦. This worked well, as South could bid 5C easily over East's 4♠. Now 5♦, and we possibly got fortunate when East tried 5♥. N could now evaluate S as being short in hearts, so she bid 6♦. They didn't save.