Open 1NT with 5-card major without Puppet?

[pescetom]

I don't like to give up garbage stayman so would never play 2♣ puppet over 1N.

 

Diamonds are a garbage bidder's best friend, but let's leave that until the other thread.

If anything, you have to give up crawling stayman, but that is more neat than frequent.

[miamijd]

The following is pretty standard among expert USA players

 

Open 1NT with most all 5332 and 15-16

With most 17 point hands that have a good 5 card major, treat it as 18

 

Play either 2NT or (more common) 3c over 1NT as Puppet. You only show 5 card majors over this bid. Otherwise you make the cheapest call to shoW no five card major (with or without a four card major). Partner can then show a stiff or a fragment so that you avoid 3NT with a weak spot. You typically only use the Puppet bid with something like 5143

 

Cheers,

Mike

[miamijd]

The following is pretty standard among expert USA players

 

Open 1NT with most all 5332 and 15-16

With most 17 point hands that have a good 5 card major, treat it as 18

 

Play either 2NT or (more common) 3c over 1NT as Puppet. You only show 5 card majors over this bid. Otherwise you make the cheapest call to shoW no five card major (with or without a four card major). Partner can then show a stiff or a fragment so that you avoid 3NT with a weak spot. You typically only use the Puppet bid with something like 5143

 

Cheers,

Mike

[miamijd]

The following is pretty standard among expert USA players

 

Open 1NT with most all 5332 and 15-16

With most 17 point hands that have a good 5 card major, treat it as 18

 

Play either 2NT or (more common) 3c over 1NT as Puppet. You only show 5 card majors over this bid. Otherwise you make the cheapest call to shoW no five card major (with or without a four card major). Partner can then show a stiff or a fragment so that you avoid 3NT with a weak spot. You typically only use the Puppet bid with something like 5143

 

Cheers,

Mike

[roninbc]

The following is pretty standard among expert USA players

 

Open 1NT with most all 5332 and 15-16

With most 17 point hands that have a good 5 card major, treat it as 18

 

Play either 2NT or (more common) 3c over 1NT as Puppet. You only show 5 card majors over this bid. Otherwise you make the cheapest call to shoW no five card major (with or without a four card major). Partner can then show a stiff or a fragment so that you avoid 3NT with a weak spot. You typically only use the Puppet bid with something like 5143

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Thanks.

 

I like this a lot, especially if I can get my partner, who won't give up 3m invitations, to adopt mss 2S and Puppet 2NT.

[vcalimidi]

There is a handy method of showing 5 card major conveniently without using puppet stayman.

 

When responder bids 2♣ the opener having a 5 card major will answer in the following manner.

 

 

1) With 15 HCP - Bid 2nt.

 

2) With 17 HCP - Bid 3♣

 

Now the responder will bid -3♣ or 3♦ to enquire about the 5 card major.

[msjennifer]

Sir,some of my friends who do open a1NT (15/17)with a 5 card suit respond 2NT on the 2C stayman when holding a 5 card major and show the major on a 3C clarification ask by responder..To be frank I wonder if this is worth considering or not.Personally I do not like opening 1NT with a 5 card major as also when holding two four card majors as we play Super Precision.(1NT is 13/15 in the system)We apply the same when playing a standard system like SAYC.

[johnu]

I don't like to give up garbage stayman so would never play 2♣ puppet over 1N.

 

While you give up a crawling garbage Stayman with both majors, you gain a puppet garbage Stayman with 5+ diamonds, and 2+ cards in each major. Just pass a 2♦ response, or less frequently, a 2♥ or 2♠ response.

[fromageGB]

There are a couple of other considerations. First matchpoints. If you fail to show a 5 card major then when partner passes you will usually be scoring badly compared to the others who play in 2M. Not so valid at IMPs, so it depends on your scoring method. It depends too on the field, as if all around you are playing the same the scores will of course be normal. If the field is weak NT, you will notice.

 

Secondly, you may have agreements on things like mini-splinters, whose benefits you lose, and other treatments that may help you find game if you open 1M.

 

Having said that, I do think it most important that you play some form of Gazzilli and for me it is 15+.

[pescetom]

While you give up a crawling garbage Stayman with both majors, you gain a puppet garbage Stayman with 5+ diamonds, and 2+ cards in each major. Just pass a 2♦ response, or less frequently, a 2♥ or 2♠ response.

That's what I was hinting at. 5 card majors are not that frequent, it's almost a transfer to 2 diamonds.

[roninbc]

Sir,some of my friends who do open a1NT (15/17)with a 5 card suit respond 2NT on the 2C stayman when holding a 5 card major and show the major on a 3C clarification ask by responder..To be frank I wonder if this is worth considering or not.Personally I do not like opening 1NT with a 5 card major as also when holding two four card majors as we play Super Precision.(1NT is 13/15 in the system)We apply the same when playing a standard system like SAYC.

 

You take me back 40 years, to a time when my regular partner and I also played Super Precision, and also would not open 1NT with two 4-card majors, let alone a 5-card major!

[rhm]

Coming from the other side of the pond, the main philosophy here (Italy) is to almost always give preference to the Major and show it whenever possible. There are certainly hands favorable to either approach, but in my experience the hands where I was stuck and struggling in 1NT while 2M (or even game!) was cold were many more than the hands where landing in 3NT rather than 4M resulted in a superior contract.

I agree.

The problem are less game forcing hands but partials. When responder is weak playing in a 8 or 9 card major fit is usually and frequently superior.

 

With all my serious partners I play Gazzilli (a relay structure after 1M - 1NT) so I can easily describe all 15+ hands, even when balanced, after opening 1M without any rebid problems. Without Gazzilli I can understand the need to open 1NT instead, but I still do it just when I feel there's no better way.

 

In order to solve your problem, you could consider the following possible solutions:

 

1) employ 2C Puppet Stayman;

 

2) employ 2C regular Stayman and answer 2H/S with 4 or 5 cards, not being able to distinguish;

 

3) employ 2C regular Stayman and answer 2H/S with 4 or 5 cards, then responder can relay with 3C ("re-Stayman") to ask about specific length;

 

4) employ 2C regular Stayman and answer 2H/S with just 4 cards, while jumping to 3H/S with 5 cards. In this case it would be useful to play 1NT – 2NT as natural and invitational, also because using Stayman for all invitational hands, with or without Majors, discloses too much information to the opponents without a real purpose; you would lose the 2NT as transfer to Diamonds, but you could replace it by playing 3C transfer to Diamonds weak or GF+ and 3D as exactly invitational in Diamonds;

 

5) employ 2C regular Stayman and 3C Puppet Stayman. The loss of 3C as purely invitational in Clubs is marginal, since you anyway have 2S as transfer to Clubs with the possibility to super-accept. This is, by the way, the approach chosen by the Lavazza team (several times world champion) in the Big Bang system, so it cannot be that bad.

 

6) Use Gazzilli!

 

I hope I could be helpful ;)

Well this is much more problematic.

 

First of all starting Gazilli with 15 HCP is problematic in my view.

You may have no fit , with Gazilli you can not play 2C or 1NT with a 5 card major and 15-17 HCP and 1NT migtht well be the best contracts when you do not have a major suit fit.

There must be some advantage when you open 1M and you can not be 15-17 and balanced, whether you play Gazilli or not.

 

Gazilli ist not for beginners and better suited to IMPs than matchpoints.

With regard to continuations after 1NT, I am a strong believer in 2).

The need to differentiate between a four card and 5 card major in a balanced hand is greatly exaggerated.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

While you give up a crawling garbage Stayman with both majors, you gain a puppet garbage Stayman with 5+ diamonds, and 2+ cards in each major. Just pass a 2♦ response, or less frequently, a 2♥ or 2♠ response.

 

Yeah, but 2M played in a 5-2 from the strong hand is often a disaster, frequently worse than 1N.

[johnu]

Yeah, but 2M played in a 5-2 from the strong hand is often a disaster, frequently worse than 1N.

Sure, it could be a disaster, or it could be very successful. Are you a glass half full or glass half empty believer?

 

Of course, 5-2 is a worst case scenario. You could even hit the lottery and find a 5-4 fit, eg. responder is 4=2=5=2.

 

And playing a 5-2 major suit fits is fairly common for 2/1 players after auctions similar to

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hp1np2cp2hppp]133|100[/hv]

[JLilly]

If you use the "gap" bid in your minor transfers as the negative response and the completion of the transfer as the superaccept, you can roll the weak 55 minors and invitational 55 minors hands into the minor transfers, freeing up 3♣ for puppet. The treatment below assumes that the suit quality of the invitational 55 hands is such if opener has a club holding good enough to superaccept the single-suited club transfer, you go to game. I just came up with this; there may be something I missed. . ..

 

1N-2♠ = clubs (weak, inv, strong); or 5-5 inv

. . . . . . . 2N = I don't like clubs

. . . . . . . . . . 3♣ = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = 5-5 inv in the minors, how about diamonds?

. . . . . . . 3♣ = I like clubs

. . . . . . . . . . pass = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = whatever you use that for (e.g., shortness with slam interest)

. . . . . . . . . . 3N = 5-5 inv, accepted; or clubs inv, accepted

1N-2N = diamonds (weak, inv, strong), or 5-5 weak

. . . . . . . 3♣ = I don't like diamonds

. . . . . . . . . . pass = 5-5 weak minors; signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = signoff

. . . . . . . 3♦ = I like diamonds

. . . . . . . . . . pass = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3N = diamonds inv, accepted

1N-3♣ = puppet

1N-3♦ = 5-5 GF

 

Since 1N-2♠; 2N-3♦ is used to show a 5-5 inv hand after answering negatively about clubs, it means you can't use it for responder to show some diamond feature (shortness, etc.) having a very strong club suit with slam interest even opposite a rejection of the club transfer. I think this is better than losing that ability when opener has an acceptance of the club transfer, since in that case, slam is more likely.

[apollo1201]

If you use the "gap" bid in your minor transfers as the negative response and the completion of the transfer as the superaccept, you can roll the weak 55 minors and invitational 55 minors hands into the minor transfers, freeing up 3♣ for puppet. The treatment below assumes that the suit quality of the invitational 55 hands is such if opener has a club holding good enough to superaccept the single-suited club transfer, you go to game. I just came up with this; there may be something I missed. . ..

 

1N-2♠ = clubs (weak, inv, strong); or 5-5 inv

. . . . . . . 2N = I don't like clubs

. . . . . . . . . . 3♣ = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = 5-5 inv in the minors, how about diamonds?

. . . . . . . 3♣ = I like clubs

. . . . . . . . . . pass = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = whatever you use that for (e.g., shortness with slam interest)

. . . . . . . . . . 3N = 5-5 inv, accepted; or clubs inv, accepted

1N-2N = diamonds (weak, inv, strong), or 5-5 weak

. . . . . . . 3♣ = I don't like diamonds

. . . . . . . . . . pass = 5-5 weak minors; signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3♦ = signoff

. . . . . . . 3♦ = I like diamonds

. . . . . . . . . . pass = signoff

. . . . . . . . . . 3N = diamonds inv, accepted

1N-3♣ = puppet

1N-3♦ = 5-5 GF

 

Since 1N-2♠; 2N-3♦ is used to show a 5-5 inv hand after answering negatively about clubs, it means you can't use it for responder to show some diamond feature (shortness, etc.) having a very strong club suit with slam interest even opposite a rejection of the club transfer. I think this is better than losing that ability when opener has an acceptance of the club transfer, since in that case, slam is more likely.

Seems good and logical, but with I never managed to know if the price to pay (using Stayman for invitational hands w/o majors and disclosing opener’s distribution) was too high of not to cover all the benefits

[JLilly]

Seems good and logical, but with I never managed to know if the price to pay (using Stayman for invitational hands w/o majors and disclosing opener’s distribution) was too high of not to cover all the benefits

 

Right -- my post was meant just to address the OP's concerns. I don't think I've encountered a structure that accomplishes all of (1) keeping garbage/crawling Stayman, (2) not using Stayman for quantitative invites, (3) using regular Stayman (not Keri etc.), (4) standard Jacoby transfers, (4) allowing quantitative invites, (5) giving 1NT opener a vote on the minor transfers, (6) having a puppet Stayman bid, (7) showing 5-5 minor hands---weak, invitational, and GF, and (8) keeping two 3-level responses for various major-related features (such as 3M showing (31)(45), or 5-5 major hands).

 

I suppose you could overload the major transfers, maybe like this:

Invert the meanings of 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠ (4=5 invitational) with 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2NT (5 hearts, invitational). 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠ now is ostensibly the 5-heart invitational hand. Opener declines with 2 hearts and a minimum with 2N. This leaves room for responder to enquire about opener's spade holding, or various other things. With 3+ hearts and/or a maximum, opener makes various other 3-level bids that I haven't worked out. You add some artificial bids for opps to double, although puppet does that anyway. You also can't stop in 2♠ when responder is 4=5 and opener has four spades and a minimum hand, although this is a "bonus" -- in general, invitations take the pair to at least 2N.

[fromageGB]

First of all starting Gazilli with 15 HCP is problematic in my view.

You may have no fit , with Gazilli you can not play 2C or 1NT with a 5 card major ...

When you play a forcing NT you have lost the ability to play in 1NT, and those who choose to play this way think that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages - but that's another discussion. Given that you cannot play in 1NT, this is not an argument. If you play "natural" rebids after 1NT, and repeating the major shows 6 cards, you are really forced to rebid 2♣ when you have no club suit in the accepted sense, perhaps being a doubleton. Gazzilli does not therefore lose a natural bid.

 

...and 15-17 HCP and 1NT might well be the best contract when you do not have a major suit fit.

Yes, it surely may be. But when responder is not strong enough to reply to your 1NT open, having no long suit, 1NT may well be a terrible contract compared to 1M played on a 5-2 fit. Often, though, they take the same number of tricks, which is why I prefer in MPs that 1NT excludes a 5 card major, and in IMPs it may include. When it includes, I thoroughly agree with you that the 5 cards are best not revealed.