What is this hand worth?

[Tramticket]

[hv=pc=n&n=skq8hakj4dk953ckq&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p]133|200[/hv]

 

Teams match - last board. You were 30 IMPs up at halfway, but you suspect that this lead has been eroded.

 

How do you value this hand? Your options are:

(1) You value as 21-22 - open as 2♦ (multi)

(2) You value 20 or less - you are playing four-card majors and the system bid is 1♥.

 

 

 

At the table I chose to down-grade the hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=skq8hakj4dk953ckq&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1h2c2hp]133|200[/hv]

 

Left hand opponent over-calls 2♣ and partner raises to 2♥. This raise does not promise a lot and is likely to be a three-card suit.

 

Your hand doesn't seem to have improved. What now? Are you heading for game? If so, which one? Or inviting - which invitation?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 I am a bean counter, 21 it is, but downgrading is reasonable, I rarely do it, same goes for upgrading

#2 I will invite, I decided to go low, why should I change this decision. I will go with 2NT, planning

to offer 3NT as an alternative contract, if partner showes some live.

[The_Badger]

Right to downgrade. Looks like a downgrade to a trained bridge eye. And K&R confirms it too: 19.90

 

A 2NT rebid here, inviting 3NT, looks dangerous. A 4♥ contract could be fraught too, if partner just has 3 card support. I'm inclined to bid 3♣ here - this must show a 18-19 hand - and see what partner says. I wouldn't take 3♣ as unconditionally game forcing if you do raise on 3 card support over an overcall, but to me there's seems no other bid. (However, see below)

 

On the bidding there's probably (in my estimation) a 3-1 chance that partner has useful holding in ♣ to shore up the doubleton KQ. It's difficult territory as 3♣ could be seen as some trial bid too. Personally I feel you're in bit of a pickle here.

 

On reflection maybe a 2NT rebid is the least of all evils. You have a balanced hand with a club stop, and you are not guaranteeing any more. Bouncing into a 3NT or 4♥ contract on the strength (or non-strength) of partner's single raise is chancing.

 

At least you're not lying too much by rebidding 2NT, downgrading the hand a second time due to the doubleton ♣KQ after the opponents have overcalled the suit.

[eagles123]

i would show as 21-22, it's not a great hand but it's not terrible either, and imo not worth a downgrade out of that range

[pescetom]

I would downgrade that to 20, but I wouldn't automatically switch to a different opening if I knew that it might be difficult to bid this hand that way.

[ggwhiz]

Are your opponents playing the same methods?

 

Given the state of the match they won't be downgrading anything at the other table so doing so here is just putting another swing board in play.

[pescetom]

Are your opponents playing the same methods?

 

I somehow doubt that all opponents are playing methods where 1♥ - 2♥ does not guarantee a fit B-)

[heart76]

[hv=pc=n&n=skq8hakj4dk953ckq&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p]133|200[/hv]

Your hand doesn't seem to have improved. What now? Are you heading for game? If so, which one? Or inviting - which invitation?

 

Our multi is 20-21 so I'm in with that. I would also open multi if we had it 21-22 because it gets much more detailed in terms of points than the NT reverse.

 

At the point where you put it, I would be happy to:

a) invite with your standard methods, our being 2NT here whereas a suit would show shortness, and then bid game anyway;

b) Bid 3NT to let partner choose, if you don't fear playing 3NT;

c) Bid 4H. You need 5 HCP with partner after all.

[Tramticket]

I somehow doubt that all opponents are playing methods where 1♥ - 2♥ does not guarantee a fit B-)

 

1♥, 2♥ does guarantee a seven card fit. In an uncontested auction, it would very likely be a four-card raise and if not, there will be some shape. But in a contested auction, we will freely raise to the two-level on a three-card suit. [in an uncontested auction, I have an easy 3NT bid offering a choice of contracts].

[Tramticket]

Are your opponents playing the same methods?

 

Given the state of the match they won't be downgrading anything at the other table so doing so here is just putting another swing board in play.

 

This was certainly a consideration. Opps were playing four-card majors also, but the hand was within their 2NT opening range.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=skq8hakj4dk953ckq&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1h2c2h(3+ !H. Might be weak)p?]133|200| TramTicket writes "Teams match - last board. You were 30 IMPs up at halfway, but you suspect that this lead has been eroded. How do you value this hand? Your options are:

(1) You value as 21-22 - open as 2♦ (multi)

(2) You value 20 or less - you are playing four-card majors and the system bid is 1♥.

At the table I chose to down-grade the hand: Left hand opponent over-calls 2♣ and partner raises to 2♥. This raise does not promise a lot and is likely to be a three-card suit. Your hand doesn't seem to have improved. What now? Are you heading for game? If so, which one? Or inviting - which invitation?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++(+++++++++++++++++++++++++

As opener I rank

1. 2♦ = ART. Multi incl BAL. 21-22. A slight overbid.

2. 1♥ = NAT. Would prefer 5 ♥s, in case partner passes.

 

After 1♥ (2♣) 2♥ (Pass) ?, I rank

1. 3N = NAT. Choice of game.

2. 3♦ = F/1. Trial bid. (I suppose partner might still bid 3N).

3. 2N = INV ~18 HCP. Takes subtlety too far.

4. 4♥ = NAT. The Moysian might play OK.

[/hv]

[TylerE]

Only upgrade, never downgrade. Doubly so at teams.

[nullve]

Only upgrade, never downgrade.

Don't you believe that some balanced 21 counts are worse than some balanced 20 counts you would never upgrade?

[ahydra]

I got 21 balanced. I got a system bid for 21 balanced. WTP?

 

Choosing the low road got me something useful though - the knowledge that opps are threatening to run clubs. I'd be nervous about 3NT so would bid 3C to ask for some reinforcements in that suit, planning to play either 3NT or 4H (even on a 4-3).

 

@P_Marlowe: are you sure 2NT is forcing?

 

ahydra

[TylerE]

Don't you believe that some balanced 21 counts are worse than some balanced 20 counts you would never upgrade?

 

Not to the point I'd downgrade them out of a narrow-ranged strong opening.

[Cyberyeti]

I got 21 balanced. I got a system bid for 21 balanced. WTP?

 

Choosing the low road got me something useful though - the knowledge that opps are threatening to run clubs. I'd be nervous about 3NT so would bid 3C to ask for some reinforcements in that suit, planning to play either 3NT or 4H (even on a 4-3).

 

@P_Marlowe: are you sure 2NT is forcing?

 

ahydra

 

K&R gives this hand as 19.9 are you sure it's a 21 count ?

[Tramticket]

Only upgrade, never downgrade. Doubly so at teams.

 

This philosophy of "Only upgrade, never downgrade" can work of course. It works because partner has seen your bidding before. Partner knows that when you open 1NT and describe it as say "15-17", you might have some filthy 15 counts that are only really worth 13-14. Similarly you won't have many 17 counts (you chose to value those out of the range). In other words, the whole range has been shifted down slightly and your 15-17 NT is closer in reality to a 14-16 NT. This is of course very playable (although I personally favour an even weaker 12-14 NT). It is playable because your partner knows what to expect and makes appropriate allowance (often subconsciously).

 

But here's my gripe: are your opponents properly informed about your real range?

[gordontd]

I somehow doubt that all opponents are playing methods where 1♥ - 2♥ does not guarantee a fit B-)

It's not uncommon here for a 4-3 fit to be possible.

[pescetom]

It's not uncommon here for a 4-3 fit to be possible.

I gathered that now.

Here we play that 1C - 2C might be a 2-0 fit, so I can hardly throw the first stone.

[rmnka447]

I think you could have a lot worse 21 HCP hands, 16 of your HCP are As and Ks.

 

So I wouldn't downgrade and would try the multi 2 ♦ bid.

 

After opening 1 ♥, being overcalled 2 ♣, and having partner raise, I'm going to consult with partner on where to play by forcing for a round. If 3 ♣ asks for some help for NT, then that would be my bid as it implies sort of the hand held. If not, then I'll make a 3 ♦ game try. in either case, it leaves room for partner to bail in 3 ♥, if necessary.

 

I can accept if overbidding to a game loses, but what I don't want to do is NOT bid a game and lose when the opponents are in a position to push a bit for swings.

[nekthen]

As a match play question I think it is clear to open 2♦ even if you value this as a 20 count. Opps are going to open 2N and we want to do the same if we are allowed.

 

Without the match play scenario I open 1♦ :rolleyes:

[Tramticket]

Having decided to go low, I had second thoughts, largely for the reasons suggested by ggwhiz and nethken - the state of the match. I bid 3NT at my second turn and reached a contract with no legitimate play:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sj762h972da76c976&w=s943hqt83dj842ct5&n=skq8hakj4dk953ckq&e=sat5h65dqtcaj8432&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1h2c2hp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

The play was not great by either side. A club was led to my king the and I have no choice but to try and set up some spades. East wins the ♠A, but fears that I still hold the guarded queen and decides to switch. This must be wrong - west can't have another club if I have the guarded Q. Unfortunately, I followed through this reasoning and convinced myself that the switch only made sense if east had overcalled on a five-card suit.

 

I played off one top heart, two diamonds and all of the spades. I have arrived in dummy and have seen east show up with ♦Q10 and both opponents discarded clubs on the fourth round of spades. I have been lucky that spades have been 3-3. Can I be lucky enough to find west with the ♥Q? It seems unlikely, given east’s overcall. But if east has ♥QX, I can exit in clubs and east will have to lead up to my ♥KJ at the end … As you can see, that didn’t go well!

[P_Marlowe]

I got 21 balanced. I got a system bid for 21 balanced. WTP?

 

Choosing the low road got me something useful though - the knowledge that opps are threatening to run clubs. I'd be nervous about 3NT so would bid 3C to ask for some reinforcements in that suit, planning to play either 3NT or 4H (even on a 4-3).

 

@P_Marlowe: are you sure 2NT is forcing?

 

ahydra

Why not? I know, that we may only have a 4-3 fit, partner cannot know this,

I never denied a 5 card suit.

If he passes 2NT, and 2NT goes down, when 3H is making he should be prepared

to pay me a round.

For me 2NT is a trial bid, ..., I am assuming we play something like trial bids.

[Tramticket]

I am assuming we play something like trial bids.

 

2NT is a trial bid based on a 4-card opening (about 17-18 HCP). Suits would be trial bids based on a 5-card suit.

[P_Marlowe]

2NT is a trial bid based on a 4-card opening (about 17-18 HCP). Suits would be trial bids based on a 5-card suit.

Ok, this makes 2NT unsuitable, downgrading is ok, but not by a complete king.

Given that, and that the over trial bids show 5 carders, I would go with 3NT,

this still keeps open to play 4H, if we have a 44.

I am writing this, fully aware, that the 3NT bid, was not a success.