This seems a weak bid

[thepossum]

Dear all,

 

Please ignore the fact I forgot there was a 4-1 Trump split and played badly, and also that I could have bid hearts, I find this use of 2C far too weak. Surely the robot should be bidding hearts or even a jump in hearts.

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=st||pn|thepossum,~~M596022m,~~M5965zrm,~~M5966vev|md|4SJ8652HQ972DA74CQ,S9743HTD8632CK652,SAQTHAKJ84DQ95CT9,SKH653DKJTCAJ8743|sv|e|rh||ah|Board%206|mb|1C|an|Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20!C;%2011-21%20HCP;%2012-22%20total%20points%20|mb|1S|an|One-level%20overcall%20--%205+%20!S;%208-17%20HCP;%209-19%20total%20points|mb|P|mb|2C|an|Good%20support%20in%20S%20--%203+%20!S;%2010+%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|2S|an|5+%20!S;%208+%20HCP;%209-13%20total%20points|mb|P|mb|4S|an|3+%20!S;%2015+%20HCP;%2016-21%20total%20points%20|mb|P|mb|P|mb|P|pc|HT|pc|HJ|pc|H3|pc|H2|pc|D5|pc|DT|pc|DA|pc|D6|pc|S2|pc|S7|pc|SQ|pc|SK|pc|CA|pc|CQ|pc|C6|pc|C9|pc|DK|pc|D4|pc|D2|pc|D9|pc|C7|pc|S5|pc|C5|pc|CT|pc|S6|pc|S3|pc|SA|pc|H5|pc|ST|pc|H6|pc|S8|pc|S9|pc|HA|pc|CJ|pc|HQ|pc|D3|pc|HK|pc|C3|pc|H9|pc|C2|pc|H8|pc|C8|pc|H7|pc|S4|pc|D8|pc|DQ|pc|DJ|pc|D7|pc|H4|pc|C4|pc|SJ|pc|CK|]400|300[/hv]

 

Regards P

 

PS I've been reading up and the GIB description was old SAYC promising only 10+ points and three spades. This is a terribly weak bid.

PPS in theory it's a slam seeking bid but the description was wrong :(

PPPS it can't be too hard to change a few text strings in a piece of software

[smerriman]

What is weak about it? 2♣ is the only possible bid here.

 

A new suit in response to an overcall is not forcing, so you definitely don't want to be bidding 2♥, especially when you know you have a spade fit.

 

There are different ways to play jump shifts by advancer; GIB plays 3♥ as forcing, but denies spade support. So don't want to be bidding that.

 

2♣ is forcing, but nothing to do with seeking slam; it just shows good support and asks for more information about your hand. You show your minimum with 2♠ (2♥ would show a better overcall); partner can choose whether to pass, make a game try, bid game, or more. Here there's nothing more to do than bid game.

[thepossum]

I accept the bid may be ok according to the system but "correct" bidding only gets 4S and misses H fit. I rebid spades because I didn't have enough for game based on the cue bid. Why does the system assume that is the best suit fit. I've been reading about these bids all day. To me there is a problem. People who bid hearts were promising more than they had according to a 10+ cue bid

[pescetom]

I accept the bid may be ok according to the system but "correct" bidding only gets 4S and misses H fit. I rebid spades because I didn't have enough for game based on the cue bid. Why does the system assume that is the best suit fit. I've been reading about these bids all day. To me there is a problem. People who bid hearts were promising more than they had according to a 10+ cue bid

 

The system respects the fact that there is not much room to manuever when interfererer can have as little strength as you had and maybe only the named suit. If your majors were better you could use a convention like Michaels to show both suits and find the H fit.

[thepossum]

The system respects the fact that there is not much room to manuever when interfererer can have as little strength as you had and maybe only the named suit. If your majors were better you could use a convention like Michaels to show both suits and find the H fit.

 

OK thanks but I would like to see the strength and hearts mentioned. If I had been in GIBs place may have bent the rules and bid hearts either in response to overall or over the 2S rebid. But I do accept that GIB did play according to convention without pushing things too much. 4S is ok but 4H is much nicer and a potential slam with the right fit and cards. I almost bid hearts myself, should have done. Opening takeout doubles were not strong enough. Several passed which also reaches 4H. It just seems a bid sad (I'm not complaining about other bidding) that "correct" bidding here finds an inferior contract. It seems the cue bid is a bit flawed having such a wide range but GIB is honouring as far as I can see

[smerriman]

What are you suggesting should change?

 

- 2♥ forcing? This may be playable but definitely not standard - you want to be able to bid a non-forcing 2♥ just to improve the contract (say, with a decent 6 hearts and a spade singleton/void, but not much else).

 

- jump to 3♥? If you then have, say, 2 hearts, you aren't going to have much choice but to raise hearts and lose the preferred spade fit.

 

The cost of either of these seems to outweigh the tiny amount of time when you don't want to play in the known spade fit. If you have enough for slam, you'll know it because opener won't bid 2♠.

 

This isn't really anything to do with GIB's system - the definition and bid of 2♣ seem very standard. (You can play that 2♣ doesn't guarantee support, but you'd still bid it here anyway.)

[ahydra]

Play 3H as fit jump? (What does GIB play it as?)

 

To OP: Changing strings wouldn't do anything to change the actual bidding. You also need to change the definition of the bid, which is somewhat more involved.

 

ahydra

[smerriman]

Right - in that case you'd need to include a lot of hands without a fit in the 2♣ bid. GIB plays 2♣ as showing spades, so 3♥ shows a good hand with hearts but denies spades.