Your bid?

[diana_eva]

IMPs, team match, strong opps

 

You're playing 2/1 vanilla

 

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=S64HJ5DAJ6CAKT965&d=n&v=o&a=1S3H?]200|300[/hv]

[Tramticket]

Difficult, but we likely have the values for at least game and I have a suit that I want to mention, so I guess that I take the push and bid 4C. One risk in this is that we miss our best 3NT game, but against that we might unearth a slam.

[nullve]

X

[dokoko]

Very normal double.

 

Values for game, no fit, no ♥ stop.

[nige1]

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=S64HJ5DAJ6CAKT965&d=n&v=o&a=1S3H?]200|300|

IMPs, team match, strong opps

You're playing 2/1 vanilla[/hv]

I rank

1. Double = NEG. Like Dokoko and Nullve, I hope partner can bid 3N.
2. 4♠ = NAT. Might be OK.
3. 3♠ = NAT. Underbid but partner might rebid 3N.
4. 4♣ = NAT But committal
5. 4♥ = CUE But no room to explore.
6. 3N = NAT. Macho but mad. Especially if partner turns up with ♥ Kx

[Cyberyeti]

To people who double, what does 1♠-3♥-X-4♥-X mean ?

[nullve]

To people who double, what does 1♠-3♥-X-4♥-X mean ?

takeout

[The_Badger]

To people who double, what does 1♠-3♥-X-4♥-X mean ?

 

That's a good point, Cyberyeti, though I'd rather X than bid 4♣ here. Yes, there's always the possibility that partner is 5143 and we play in a ♦ suit Moysian game instead of ♣s. But nobody said bridge is an easy game...

[Cyberyeti]

takeout

 

What we talking ? 52(42)/5233 ?

[nullve]

What we talking ? 52(42)/5233 ?

In situations where opps appear to have preempted to the limit: If we just trust them and look at the number of cards we have in their suit, we can also infer how many cards partner is likely to have in their suit. So if we do the same here, then although partner might also have doubled with 5233 or 52(42) shape on this auction, I think he's more likely to be 51(43) in view of our heart doubleton. (And of course more likely to be 5143 than 5134 in view of our xx36 shape.)

[DozyDom]

[hv=https://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=S64HJ5DAJ6CAKT965&d=n&v=o&a=1S3H?]200|300|

IMPs, team match, strong opps

You're playing 2/1 vanilla[/hv]

I rank

1. Double = NEG. Like Dokoko and Nullve, I hope partner can bid 3N.
2. 4♠ = NAT. Might be OK.
3. 3♠ = NAT. Underbid but partner might rebid 3N.
4. 4♣ = NAT But committal
5. 4♥ = CUE But no room to explore.
6. 3N = NAT. Macho but mad. Especially if partner turns up with ♠ QTx

You're saying 4!C is committal but placing 4!S above it? That seems like a bit of a bizarre thought process. If I bid 4!C, I should be easily able to play in 4!S when partner doesn't have club support. If I bid 4!S, how am I going to play in a 9-card club fit rather than a 7-card spade fit?

 

After 3!S, are you suggesting p's 3NT rebid is an offer to play? It looks like a slam try of some sort to me.

[msjennifer]

4C.Does not one bid 3C if the overcall was 2H? And most certainly we have game going points and only a small doubleton in Heart suit .(can play in 5C as we have the DA control).

[pescetom]

After 3!S, are you suggesting p's 3NT rebid is an offer to play? It looks like a slam try of some sort to me.

 

Not sure exactly how nige1 plays it, but to me 3NT would be an offer to play. If I was interested in slam I would not have bid ♠ but 4♥.

[HardVector]

To people who double, what does 1♠-3♥-X-4♥-X mean ?

Responsive. Should be equal length in the minors.

[Cyberyeti]

Responsive. Should be equal length in the minors.

 

So if that's the case doesn't it risk you playing a 4-3 diamond fit rather than a 6-3 club fit ? This was part of the purpose of the question, what happens 5143 and 5242, and is why I don't like X.

[mikeh]

Marty Bergen invented thrump doubles precisely for this sort of situation. The opps have preempted such that we cannot show our suit below 3N, where 3N may well be the best, and sometimes the only making, game.

 

I have never played thrump doubles. There’s no doubt but that they work brilliantly when they come up, but they carry a significant price since opener presumably has to give priority to bidding 3N rather than bidding our fit. Arguably this OP sequence is th3 best for thrump doubles since we give up only on a minor suit contract, whereas if partner had opened a minor, we may be unable to find a major fit, if double is thrump.

 

One should not haul out an artificial convention without an agreement, but I can see doubling here anyway, since we can perhaps survive whatever partner does, so long as he doesn’t insist on diamonds with only 4 of them (and even then we may survive). I intend to bid 4S over 4D or 3S. Over an improbable 4C, I raise. I pass 3N.

 

My second choice is 4C, intending to bid 4S over 4D, and make a slam move over 4H should partner bid that, and pass 4S.

 

I would score any other call as zero in any bidding contest.

[HardVector]

So if that's the case doesn't it risk you playing a 4-3 diamond fit rather than a 6-3 club fit ? This was part of the purpose of the question, what happens 5143 and 5242, and is why I don't like X.

It's the OPENER making the double saying pick your better minor. You gonna pick diamonds?

[rmnka447]

If the preempt was 2 ♥ instead of 3 ♥, responder would have a clear forcing 3 ♣ bid. But the 3 ♥ preempt has made life difficult. The hand is clearly worth bidding to game. However, a 4 ♣ bid shows the hand's suit but bypasses 3 NT which might be the right spot.

 

So, despite the ♣ suit, I think the right bid is Double.

 

If opener finds a 3 NT bid, I think there are reasonable prospects the contract will make. The ♣ suit may provide a running suit if partner happens to hold ♣ Q. If not, the ♥ J may help provide a potential 2nd stopper if opener's stopper is something like ♥ K10x.

 

 

If opener doesn't find a 3 NT bid, then opener's bid will provide some information in the quest where to play the hand. If opener bids 3 ♠, responder can bid 4 ♣ trying for 4 ♠ or 5 ♣. If opener bids 4 ♣, responder can carry on to 5 ♣. If opener bids 4 ♦, then the question is whether to play in ♦ on a potential 4-3 fit or play somewhere else. I'd be apt to try 4 ♠ over 4 ♦.

 

Someone asked about what opener's double meant in the auction 1 ♠ - (3 ♥) - Dbl - (4 ♥) - Dbl. Since the original negative double was already for takeout with presumably about game going values, I don't think it's for takeout. Opener can simply bid a suit if there's a preference for a minor or pass to give responder the chance to bid further or double. I'd probably take the double as showing values/cooperative versus necessarily being penalty. With 3 QTs, I'd just pass and take what looks like a sure set. +300 versus a game our way gives up at worst a part score swing, but gains if any game at the 5 level goes down.

[Cyberyeti]

It's the OPENER making the double saying pick your better minor. You gonna pick diamonds?

 

You miss the point, if X is equal length, he has to bid diamonds on 4 if 4-3 or 4-2. What you doing over 5♦ ? If the answer is 5♠, he'll have been 5-5.

[HardVector]

You miss the point, if X is equal length, he has to bid diamonds on 4 if 4-3 or 4-2. What you doing over 5♦ ? If the answer is 5♠, he'll have been 5-5.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The original point I was commenting on was what did 1s-3h-x-4h-x mean. I stated it was responsive. It is now your turn to bid. How is the opener going to skip you and bid 5d? Please try to clarify what your point is.

[Cyberyeti]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The original point I was commenting on was what did 1s-3h-x-4h-x mean. I stated it was responsive. It is now your turn to bid. How is the opener going to skip you and bid 5d? Please try to clarify what your point is.

 

No, I'm saying he can't make the responsive double if it shows equal length and he doesn't have it, so has to bid something else instead, which might just be 5♦ when you don't want it to be.

[HardVector]

No, I'm saying he can't make the responsive double if it shows equal length and he doesn't have it, so has to bid something else instead, which might just be 5♦ when you don't want it to be.

So, you are talking about something completely different than the comment I was responding to. Why are you directing your angst at me? You are arguing about the first double, which I understand. It was kind of a tossup for me to bid 4♣ or double. Personally, I HATE passing 3n when it looks right if partner can handle their suit. 4♣ is unilateral and removes a 3n contract from the equation, so I would want it to be more suit oriented to do it. Doubling, however, does bring with it a potential 5 level guess in the next round of bidding. If partner bids 5d with 5 spades and 4 diamonds, you are probably going to have a little conversation. IMO, there is no good bid, make your best guess. Score 1 more for preempts.

[Cyberyeti]

So, you are talking about something completely different than the comment I was responding to. Why are you directing your angst at me? You are arguing about the first double, which I understand. It was kind of a tossup for me to bid 4♣ or double. Personally, I HATE passing 3n when it looks right if partner can handle their suit. 4♣ is unilateral and removes a 3n contract from the equation, so I would want it to be more suit oriented to do it. Doubling, however, does bring with it a potential 5 level guess in the next round of bidding. If partner bids 5d with 5 spades and 4 diamonds, you are probably going to have a little conversation. IMO, there is no good bid, make your best guess. Score 1 more for preempts.

 

No, I'm thinking a step ahead, because whether you can double first time depends on how partner responds to that double over a raise. If you play "equal length" for the responsive X I don't think you can, if this is a known possible hand type and you have other methods for the second double, maybe you can.

 

If partner doesn't bid 5♦ with 4, you'll be 2245 and possibly play a 5-<4 club fit instead of the 4-4 diamond fit. Also depends what your agreement is on a pass over 4♥.

[HardVector]

If you play "equal length" for the responsive X I don't think you can

FYI, a responsive double is a double made in response to something else, typically to a takeout double. The double you are referring to as a responsive double, was a takeout double.

 

1s-(3h)-X takeout

1s-(3h)-X-(4h)-X responsive

 

This was what was confusing the heck out of me. You kept referring to the takeout double as responsive. In this example, the responsive double (by the opener) shows equal length in the minors. The takeout double SHOULD show both minors, but is done with a number of hands depending on the auction. In this case, it's jammed so you don't have a lot of room to explore for 3n. By your comments, because you don't have diamonds you "can't" double. That means that you will never play 3n on this kind of hand. I disagree with that.

[smerriman]

HardVector, you've missed Cyberyeti's point about three times in a row :) He was not referring to the takeout double as responsive.

 

If you play that partner's responsive double - 1♠-(3♥)-X-(4♥)-X - guarantees equal length in the minors, then you'll often be playing a poor 5♦ whenever partner does *not* have equal length in the minors.

 

The point was that the takeout double works a lot better if the responsive double isn't so strictly defined.