Camrose disaster 2

[manudude03]

Just 3 boards after the hand in the previous topic.

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sj975hat98d982cj6&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=p1sd3sp4s5hp]133|200[/hv]

 

Butler IMPs scoring. Is this enough to bump it up one more?

[cherdano]

No. Partner wasn't planning to bid at the 5-level when he doubled originally.

But the true answer is that it's impossible to answer without knowing partner's style. Some require a monster to double-and-bid with, say, 0=6=3=4; opposite such a partner we should raise.

[rmnka447]

No. Partner has to have an awful lot of cards for slam to make. There's just no way to know if they are there. Sit for 5 ♥.

[gszes]

Pass --- Unless partner had 11 tricks I am highly skeptical they would have chosen 5h vs x of 4s. I think it is much more likely that partner is bidding 5h more as a sac than with any intention of making it. Be pleased you have the trump ace and a possible ruffing value they might even make it and the bidding isn't over yet.

[The_Badger]

Sit tight until the fat lady sings :)

 

I haven't a clue what's partner's up to, and what sort of hand he has for X and 5♥ instead of a straightforward overcall/vulnerable pre-empt opposite a passed partner. (I can only assume that it was a State of the Match bid.)

 

Partner's got lucky and found you with nice trumps, but you have little else. Pass

[ahydra]

I'd pass due to the risk of having two top losers in a minor suit. I feel this is very close though, e.g. partner could well have something like - KQJxxxx AKQ Qxx and only ♣Q -> ♣K is needed for slam to be worth a shout given partner sitting over opener.

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

Pass.

 

Partner was under pressure and probably bid 5♥ as a two-way shot. He is probably hoping that you have a couple of trumps and a "card or two" to give him a shot at 5♥ - whilst expecting that if you have a bust it will be a profitable sacrifice against 4♠.

 

You have a couple of trumps more than partner might expect, but with no shortage these might not be worth much.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass.

 

Partner was under pressure and probably bid 5♥ as a two-way shot. He is probably hoping that you have a couple of trumps and a "card or two" to give him a shot at 5♥ - whilst expecting that if you have a bust it will be a profitable sacrifice against 4♠.

 

You have a couple of trumps more than partner might expect, but with no shortage these might not be worth much.

 

Mostly agree with this, yes he might have enough for a slam, he might need all you've got to make 5, not your business to guess example void, KQJxxx, Axx(x), AKx(x) only makes 5, add Q♣ and it makes 7 if you have 4 clubs, 6 if 4 diamonds, a 7th heart and 3-3 doesn't change this much.

[mikeh]

I have to wonder what kind of hand bids double then 5H rather than 4H then double, given that we are a passed hand. The sort of hand where partner is taking a two way shot here look to me as warranting the latter approach. However, I don’t know our style. I’m taking the plus unless I am comfortable that he thinks the same way as I do about preemptive and doubling, in which case I assume he’s bidding with an expectation of making. Note that any minor suit cards he is missing rate to be onside. Void KQJxxxx AQx AQx would be close to a minimum were I to bid as he has done and slam is reasonable

[Dinarius]

I have losers coming out my ears, so I’m passing and hoping five makes.

 

P is almost certainly void in Spades; great, but that means ruffing in the long hand. Not great.

 

Way too easy to lose two tricks in the minors, in my view.

 

D.

[rhm]

Just 3 boards after the hand in the previous topic.

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sj975hat98d982cj6&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=p1sd3sp4s5hp]133|200[/hv]

 

Butler IMPs scoring. Is this enough to bump it up one more?

Partner could have bid 4NT followed by 5♥ showing a stronger hand

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

Partner could have bid 4NT followed by 5♥ showing a stronger hand

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

If it shows this, depends how you use 4N. Over 5♦ can this not be say 1624 where you'd play clubs if partner bid them ?

[rhm]

If it shows this, depends how you use 4N. Over 5♦ can this not be say 1624 where you'd play clubs if partner bid them ?

Of course this needs agreement, but as far as I know this is one I have seen mentioned before in bidding discussions, that is differentiating between an immediate 5♥ and the one via 4NT.

Of course even more common might be that 4NT is any two-suiter, where partner assumes minors, but when you correct 5♦ to 5♥ it shows clubs and hearts, in which case you can not use it for the above purpose or you accept there is an ambiguity when partner responds 5♦ to 4NT, when it is either a club-heart two-suiter or a superstrong heart overcall.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

I have to wonder what kind of hand bids double then 5H rather than 4H then double, given that we are a passed hand. The sort of hand where partner is taking a two way shot here look to me as warranting the latter approach. However, I don’t know our style. I’m taking the plus unless I am comfortable that he thinks the same way as I do about preemptive and doubling, in which case I assume he’s bidding with an expectation of making. Note that any minor suit cards he is missing rate to be onside. Void KQJxxxx AQx AQx would be close to a minimum were I to bid as he has done and slam is reasonable

Do you think it's at all possible that partner has 6 hearts, i.e. 0=6=(4=3) with KQJ of hearts? He'd be too strong for 2H the first round, but unsuitable for 4H, and didn't want to risk doubling again in the second round (which we'd likely pass).

[mikeh]

Of course this needs agreement, but as far as I know this is one I have seen mentioned before in bidding discussions, that is differentiating between an immediate 5♥ and the one via 4NT.

Of course even more common might be that 4NT is any two-suiter, where partner assumes minors, but when you correct 5♦ to 5♥ it shows clubs and hearts, in which case you can not use it for the above purpose or you accept there is an ambiguity when partner responds 5♦ to 4NT, when it is either a club-heart two-suiter or a superstrong heart overcall.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Hi Rainer

 

 

I am familiar with the concept of 4N then 5H being stronger than a direct 5H, but I doubt I'd be comfortable using that here, absent discussion. I think that using it here would be an extension beyond where I've seen it before. EG: 1D (4S) 4N

 

4N is ostensibly 2 places to play (I suspect many players use this as keycard but I think expert standard is takeout), but if responder pulls 5m to 5H, he shows a hand that was too strong to bid 5H.

 

This works because responder is stuck over the preempt.

 

In our case, partner had the chance to bid 4H, planning to double 4S, if he has a powerful 1-suiter on which he expects to take 9-10 tricks (with some side cards, not just a 10 card suit), so he doesn't need a way to distinguish between that hand and a better hand in any artificial manner....he doubles then bids 5H with the real monster and bids 4H and doubles with the lesser monster.

 

Having said that, a true 2-suiter could have used michaels and then taken further action, so I can see the argument that one doesn't need 4N for that, either.

 

So maybe 4N then 5H is a gradation between true monstrous hands: I'd be ok playing that way, but I'm not ok making my call, at the table, hoping that we are guessing the same way. Experience tells me that the inferences we draw are often coloured by the hands we hold, and partner holds a different hand than do we, so is probably drawing a different inference as to what he is showing.

[Cyberyeti]

Funny how topics cross over, I was looking at JanisW's hand posted elsewhere but with hearts headed by KQJ and the same with the reverse minor suit holdings, so void, KQJxxx, (Axx, AKQx) and thinking "how would your partner bid that ?".

 

The answer to that question may guide you here.

[wank]

bidding on looks crazy to me. partner's bidding implies he was too strong for a direct 4H, but our 1.5 tricks isn't enough to move.

[nullve]

I expect partner to have an overcall style such that slam is good most of the time on this auction. Even if partner is a bit old-fashioned(?) and would double 1♠ instead of overcalling 2♥ with 06(43) shape on as little as 16-17 hcp, I bet we can make slam most of the time. Ok, so partner's hand could be

 

♠---

♥KQJxxx

♦Axx(x)

♣AKx(x),

 

as in Cyberyeti's example, so that 6♥ has almost no play. So what? Here's another "bidding problem":

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjthkq6dkj64cjt74&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np?]133|200[/hv]

 

(Partner could have

 

♠xx

♥AJT

♦QT9xx

♣AKQ,

 

in which case 3N would need massive cooperation from opps.)

[rmnka447]

Here's another "bidding problem":

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjthkq6dkj64cjt74&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np?]133|200[/hv]

 

(Partner could have

 

♠xx

♥AJT

♦QT9xx

♣AKQ,

 

in which case 3N would need massive cooperation from opps.)

 

WTP,you bid 3 NT, what else? If partner has ♠ ??, they can cash their five or six ♠ and you move on to the next hand. But it's possible they may not find a ♠ lead and/or ♠ block. It also possible partner might have a hand where 9 tricks are always available.

[msjennifer]

PASS.I shall remember that partner made a normal TOD and had he real 11 tricker would bid 2S and not a TOD. He is bidding 5H with something expected from you.

[Tramticket]

PASS.I shall remember that partner made a normal TOD and had he real 11 tricker would bid 2S and not a TOD. He is bidding 5H with something expected from you.

 

Really? For most, (1S), 2S would show a two-suited hand and not strength-showing.

 

But, yes pass.