How do you handle this

[rhm]

[hv=pc=n&s=skq4hakdk5caqt842]133|100[/hv]

 

1♣ 4+clubs 11-22, you do have a GF unbalanced 2N rebid available over a 1 of a suit response

If you have this option I really do not understand why you do not want to use it.

Looks like a perfect description of the hand to me.

I am not worried getting passed out.

In most cases I need at least one entry to dummy plus a club finesse to succeed in 3NT.

 

I am not claiming that 2♣ then 2N balanced 22-23 does not show equivalent strength, but it does not hint at the club length.

 

If you miss a club slam serves you right in my opinion.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

How do you actually bid this in old style precision ? same sort of problem, 1♣-1N- do you show it as balanced or show your clubs ? You've also wrongsided 6N.

Wrong-siding happens but tends to be over-judged.

Of course you show your clubs vigorously. (3♣ followed by 4♣ or 4NT seems appropriate).

If you bid straight away 4NT over 1♣-1N an expert might credit you with such a hand since you did not open 2♣

I would never stop below 4NT if partner responds 1N , whether playing precision or ACOL

 

Rainer Herrmann

[JanisW]

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx, even upgrading to 22-23 we didn't bid slam, but gained an IMP by making 13. I'm glad most people did what I did, it's not clear we bid a slam after a 1♣ opener either.

 

How was the bidding?

2♣ - 2♦

2NT - 3♣

3♦ - 3NT?

If so, I think your partner was a little cautious with a decent 9 count.

 

I hope I'd be able to bid like that with my fave Partner

2♣-2♦

2NT - 3♣

3♦ - 4NT (quantitative)

6♣ - P obvious with 3 to the K

 

regards

JW

[msjennifer]

How do you actually bid this in old style precision ? same sort of problem, 1♣-1N- do you show it as balanced or show your clubs ? You've also wrongsided 6N.

Sir,we DO NOT PLAY OLD PRECISION just as we do not play Gorens Standard system.Playing Super Precision we will arrive in 6 Clubs very easily .Yes,I know we will get a bottom when playing at MP. and lose a paltry 2/3 IMP.when playing an IMP event.Sir,as regards your second question ,we show clubs and it is a support asking bid.The responders bid will show Kxx support .Controls ask will be answered showing 3 controls and since we have to give up a trick to the missing Ace we will prefer to bid 6C.( and Sir,pardon me but does not one bid a 50% slam?).

[mikeh]

I'm late to the thread but to me there is no choice other than 2C then 2N.

 

Neither the suit nor the hand are good enough or suit oriented enough to bid 2C then 3C

 

Btw, to the poster who suggested 2C then 3C, and had responder bid 3S on A10xx, that is not a good idea. 3S should show 5+ length. The solution to finding a 4-4 major suit fit after this start is to use 3D by responder as a 'noise'. Give up on finding a high-level diamond fit (unless your hand is so good that you can rebid diamonds later) and use 3D as artificial. It isn't 'stayman', in that it doesn't promise a major. Sometimes all you are trying to do it to position 3N so that the strong hand is on play, especially since you don't rate to have all the side suits stopped in your hand :P

 

So on the actual hand, I'd rebid 2N, have partner stayman and then, over my 3N, I think that responder is (just) good enough to bid 4N. It isn't just hcp. It's the quality of the hcp, and in particular the fact that my 9 count includes 3 controls. In my experience, when one hand is known to be very strong, one can push a little for slam because having 3 controls and a Queen will tend to fill in the gaps in a hand that doesn't have many gaps to start with. 9 opposite 23 is usually better than say 15 opposite 17.

 

In this case, opener has an easy 6C call over 4N. While some will argue that we have already upgraded to open 2C, that argument misses the boat entirely. This isn't just a very good 21 count....once partner invites a slam in notrump, this becomes a wonderful trick taking hand. About the worst we're going to face is xx in clubs, with side entries.

 

Now, in fairness, I'd prefer to have stated my plan before I saw the hands/result, but what I have outlined is consistent with my approach to bidding big hands.

 

I always laugh when I see 2N sequences described as slam killers. I don't think any good partnership sees it that way, but one needs good methods and good evaluation skills.

[miamijd]

I would also start with 2C and rebid 2NT. 2NT openers are indeed slam-killers. 2C openers at not. At pairs, your primary goal is to get to a decent spot and then max out your tricks. You don't want to swing boards in the bidding unless you're pretty sure you're right. Here are the things that can go wrong:

 

1. You open 1C; it gets passed out; and 1C is the wrong spot (you can make a game somewhere).

2. You open 2C; you get to 3NT; and it goes set as partner has 3-4 count and short clubs. 1C would have made a plus score.

3. You open 2C and get to 3NT, but you could have reached a making 6C if you'd opened 1C.

 

I think 1 is very likely; 2 is more likely than you think (but probably less likely than 1); and 3 is not even worth considering.

 

Even after 2C-2D-2NT, there is still a shot at slam. With the 9-count your partner had, he will make some sort of major-suit inquiry (one version of Stayman or another), and when you deny a four-card major, I think it's close whether your partner should bid 3NT or 4NT. If he bids 4NT, you have an easy 6C call. If partner has 10+, you are getting to slam.

 

If partner has 7-8 with shape and 4 clubs, you will languish in 3NT when 6C might make, but do you really think you are going to get to 6C if you open 1C? Doubtful. If you are dead-set on finding these slams, then play a good strong club system like Meckwell Precision. Your part-score bidding will suffer a bit, but you will hit all your slams.

 

You are NOT strong enough to bid 2C followed by 3C. That ought to show 9.5 tricks (at least the way we play here in the USA), and that's going to result in playing way too many bad slams.

 

Incidentally, you stated that playing 2H double negative can "screw you up" if partner has a positive hand with hearts. Not necessarily. Probably the best way to play is that 2S is positive in hearts and 2NT is positive in spades. Works fairly well.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[mikeh]

I would also start with 2C and rebid 2NT. 2NT openers are indeed slam-killers. 2C openers at not. At pairs, your primary goal is to get to a decent spot and then max out your tricks. You don't want to swing boards in the bidding unless you're pretty sure you're right. Here are the things that can go wrong:

 

1. You open 1C; it gets passed out; and 1C is the wrong spot (you can make a game somewhere).

2. You open 2C; you get to 3NT; and it goes set as partner has 3-4 count and short clubs. 1C would have made a plus score.

3. You open 2C and get to 3NT, but you could have reached a making 6C if you'd opened 1C.

 

I think 1 is very likely; 2 is more likely than you think (but probably less likely than 1); and 3 is not even worth considering.

 

Even after 2C-2D-2NT, there is still a shot at slam. With the 9-count your partner had, he will make some sort of major-suit inquiry (one version of Stayman or another), and when you deny a four-card major, I think it's close whether your partner should bid 3NT or 4NT. If he bids 4NT, If partner has 10+, you are getting to slam.

 

If partner has 7-8 with shape and 4 clubs, you will languish in 3NT when 6C might make, but do you really think you are going to get to 6C if you open 1C? Doubtful. If you are dead-set on finding these slams, then play a good strong club system like Meckwell Precision. Your part-score bidding will suffer a bit, but you will hit all your slams.

 

You are NOT strong enough to bid 2C followed by 3C. That ought to show 9.5 tricks (at least the way we play here in the USA), and that's going to result in playing way too many bad slams.

 

Incidentally, you stated that playing 2H double negative can "screw you up" if partner has a positive hand with hearts. Not necessarily. Probably the best way to play is that 2S is positive in hearts and 2NT is positive in spades. Works fairly well.

 

 

that idea of how to handle the majors isn't bad, but my preference is to use 2N as either major, and opener bids 3C either with clubs or, and this is by far the more common, with interest in finding your major. Responder transfers into the major, and opener accepts to set trump, and otherwise makes an intelligent bid.

 

Btw, this frees up 2S for other uses, and (following a suggestion by Fred G) we use as balanced or semi-balanced (the only permissible 5 card suit is an indifferent minor) with 8-11 hcp. In fact, on the OP hand, we'd bid 2S...now opener can afford to bid 3C if he chooses, and it makes sense to do so once partner is known to have at least xx and usually 3+ support, and 8-11 hcp. Responder would raise clubs and now it's relatively trivial to reach 6C or 6N.

[Cyberyeti]

 

Incidentally, you stated that playing 2H double negative can "screw you up" if partner has a positive hand with hearts. Not necessarily. Probably the best way to play is that 2S is positive in hearts and 2NT is positive in spades. Works fairly well.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Sorry I meant where you were intending to bid 2♣-2♦-2♥ (particularly with 5♥ and a minor)

[jm02130]

At IMPs or rubber bridge I open 2c and respond 3c to 3d. At matchpoints I respond 2nt. I go slamming over any positive response at any form of scoring.

[Left2Right]

This is an age old problem. Let's take it one piece at a time.

 

a) You hold an a "semi-balanced" hand as Max Hardy put it, not a balanced hand. Although popular in some circles, a non-standard NT call here or on the rebid reflects a clear lack of patience, both in partner and oneself.

b) You hold 7 controls⁽¹⁾, under-representing the equivalent balanced two club opener, even if it's just by half a trick.

c) The rule we should keep in mind is that "minor suits DO NOT become second class citizens until one partner or the other can cogently dismiss the possibility of a minor suit slam." One cannot invoke this rule having heard nothing from partner.

 

Even after putting all this together, common natural systems make this hand a problem. The sophisticated but rarely used solution: The False Reverse. After patiently opening one natural club, partner responds, say 1NT. Your false reverse into 2♠ clues partner in to the possiblity of this hand. Any partner worth his salt will support clubs with any three of them or any honor doubleton.

 

You are on your way. 8-)

 

 

(1) https://www.bridgehands.com/E/Expected_Controls.htm

[mikeh]

This is an age old problem. Let's take it one piece at a time.

 

a) You hold an a "semi-balanced" hand as Max Hardy put it, not a balanced hand. Although popular in some circles, a non-standard NT call here or on the rebid reflects a clear lack of patience, both in partner and oneself.

b) You hold 7 controls<superscript>(1)</superscript>, under-representing the equivalent balanced two club opener, even if it's just by half a trick. (See https://www.bridgehands.com/E/Expected_Controls.htm )

c) The rule we should keep in mind is that "minor suits <strong>DO NOT</strong> become second class citizens until one partner or the other can cogently dismiss the possibility of a minor suit slam."

 

Even after putting all this together, common natural systems make this hand a problem. The sophisticated but rarely used solution: The False Reverse. After patiently opening one natural club, partner responds, say 1NT. Your false reverse into 2♠ clues partner in to the possiblity of this hand. Any partner worth his salt will support club with any three of them or any honor doubleton.

 

You are on your way. 8-)

 

 

 

(1) https://www.bridgehands.com/E/Expected_Controls.htm

 

 

It's been a while since I saw anyone refer to Max Hardy as an authority. He wrote a couple of versions of a book on 2/1. I owned the first one, and played the method pretty much as he outlined it, but even then I saw that he wasn't a very good writer. In fact, the book was just an explication of methods then in favour amongst experts in, primarily, California and, in fairness, he was pretty open about it, not claiming either originality nor true expert status. He was known primarily as a Tournament Director. AFAIK he never won anything of note.

 

Neither have I, of course:)

 

That idea of a fake reverse is awful, even if partner has experience with fake reverses. One can never catch up, unless one is prepared to make an unilateral overbid after partner tries to sign off, and all the while partner has no idea that you hold stoppers in every suit, no singleton, and a hand worth approximately 23 points (for those who like numbers, personally I just see this a 2C opening bid without worrying about numbers).

 

As for your rule about minors, I do agree that a lot of players, who cut their teeth in club and sectional level mp events, don't properly value the minors, especially for slam. However, one cannot cater to every aspect of a complex hand, and here opening 1C makes life so complex (assuming of course that we do not end up declaring 1C), that it really isn't worth misdescribing both shape and strength in order to show 5+ clubs!

 

In addition, if one really wants to keep a club slam in the picture, one can do so, while conveying a reasonable (tho in my view second-best) picture by bidding 2C then 3C. Note that in some methods (the one I espouse in an earlier post herein) it is entirely reasonable to rebid 3C, since partner will have shown a balanced 8-11 in response to 2C. Few pairs have that option, so I am not suggesting it as a general approach. I merely point out that there are ways to deal with these hands that do not involve a (frankly) grotesque distortion.

[miamijd]

that idea of how to handle the majors isn't bad, but my preference is to use 2N as either major, and opener bids 3C either with clubs or, and this is by far the more common, with interest in finding your major. Responder transfers into the major, and opener accepts to set trump, and otherwise makes an intelligent bid.

 

Btw, this frees up 2S for other uses, and (following a suggestion by Fred G) we use as balanced or semi-balanced (the only permissible 5 card suit is an indifferent minor) with 8-11 hcp. In fact, on the OP hand, we'd bid 2S...now opener can afford to bid 3C if he chooses, and it makes sense to do so once partner is known to have at least xx and usually 3+ support, and 8-11 hcp. Responder would raise clubs and now it's relatively trivial to reach 6C or 6N.

 

Yes, the method you suggest is superior and one that I like in a serious partnership, but I was just trying to suggest a simple method for those who didn't want to devote a lot of effort on 2C methods.

[thawp66]

One pair did this sort of thing and played 6♠ which didn't go well when spades were 5-1

If the auction started 1!C 1!H 2!S ... 6!S South should always convert to 6N

[Cyberyeti]

If the auction started 1!C 1!H 2!S ... 6!S South should always convert to 6N

 

I'm not sure what their exact auction was (it certainly started with 1♣) but S thought N had 5 spades from the way it developed so didn't pull it.

[kanchi]

I open 2c and rebid c. Again c in the next round also expecting p to bid 3nt ot pass

[gordontd]

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx, even upgrading to 22-23 we didn't bid slam, but gained an IMP by making 13. I'm glad most people did what I did, it's not clear we bid a slam after a 1♣ opener either.

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

[Cyberyeti]

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

 

We have a GF unbal 2N rebid available (weak NT, wide range 1N rebid with no gap to 2N opener so not needed as balanced)

[Tramticket]

We have a GF unbal 2N rebid available (weak NT, wide range 1N rebid with no gap to 2N opener so not needed as balanced)

 

But will it help you?

 

I haven't come across this particular method so have various questions:

- What are the continuations over the 2NT (unbalanced GF)?

- What is the HCP expection for the 2NT bid? Will partner ever believe that you are this strong?

- Will partner give support 3♣ over 2NT? Or is partner more likely raise to 3NT?

- Even if partner chooses to show some support with 3♣, you are still left with a dilemma. Do you show you NT suitability with 3NT (or 4NT if natural)?

 

[As an aside, we also play a wide range 1NT rebid, but for us 1x,1y; 2NT is 19-20 and our 2NT opening shows the minors].

[Cyberyeti]

But will it help you?

 

I haven't come across this particular method so have various questions:

- What are the continuations over the 2NT (unbalanced GF)?

- What is the HCP expection for the 2NT bid? Will partner ever believe that you are this strong?

- Will partner give support 3♣ over 2NT? Or is partner more likely raise to 3NT?

- Even if partner chooses to show some support with 3♣, you are still left with a dilemma. Do you show you NT suitability with 3NT (or 4NT if natural)?

 

[As an aside, we also play a wide range 1NT rebid, but for us 1x,1y; 2NT is 19-20 and our 2NT opening shows the minors].

 

In this case it won't help very much which is why I didn't choose to go that route, partner will expect this sort of playing strength as maximum, we lose a bit off the maximum for a 3♣ rebid, which is where it really gains on the death hand. Also it's better on the hands that are not single suited, you have 1♣-1♥-2♦ limited by the fact that you haven't gone thru 2N-3♣(semi forced)-3♦.

 

It also allows us to use a jump change of suit rebid to show a particular hand type (2 good 5+ card suits, not a particularly good hand) where partner knows side aces and honours in partner's suit are gold, the bid is not even forcing.

[rmnka447]

I missed this entire thread for a day or two, but I'd also bid 2 ♣ followed by 2 NT.

 

The fairly good, long ♣ suit raises this hand beyond a 21 point balanced hand.

 

I'm also applying a bidding principle that top Chicago player Dick Bruno has stated several times in lectures on bidding problem hands. He calls it the "one card off" principle. In this hand, if a ♣ were instead a card in another suit, you'd have no problem opening this hand with a NT bid. So bidding NT with this hand means you're no more than one card off in telling partner what you have.

 

Also, with the points and stoppers spread across all suits, this feel more like a NT hand. If the values were concentrated in two suits, than that might be a reason to favor ♣ versus NT -- perhaps something like ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx.

[rhm]

Also, with the points and stoppers spread across all suits, this feel more like a NT hand. If the values were concentrated in two suits, than that might be a reason to favor ♣ versus NT -- perhaps something like ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx.

I do not get this.

With the actual hand you require essentially the club king and an ace for slam.

If you take the 2♣-2N route you risk that partner bids slam with a balanced hand missing an ace and the club honors.

That would still give him up to 11 HCP. I can not blame him.

Only if you bid clubs can partner appreciate his values properly. In my opinion there is no rush to bid notrumps on the actual hand.

With ♠ AKQ ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ AKQJxx partner can be short in clubs and it will not materially affect your slam chances.

I might still bid clubs with the latter hand, but only because I do not know whether notrump is a good idea due to my heart holding.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[msjennifer]

The real problem with opening 1C is that it's not clear what to do on the next round. Reverse into 2D?

Sir,this problem is faced in all systems in which there is a prepared opening bid'.This applies to all natural systems where 1C which can be 2+ cards in clubs.The same problem is faced when using strong club system whether Blue Club,Roman Club,Leghorn Diamond,various so called Precision systems, where 1D is a prepared bid.Any system (leave alone the conventions and gadgets) which can correctly bid 85% or more of all hands is, in my personal opinion,,an excellent system.Therein lies the charm and excitement in Bridge.One has to describe ones hand as correctly as possible and not deviate in the slightest from the principles of whichever system one is playing.It is futile to think that "if partner holds this and that then one will miss a game or slam".The partner is there very much alive to convey his hand.Hence one must not IMAGINE things irrationally.The less imagined the better.

[msjennifer]

I just posed the question because I also play old style precision and I don't think it's easy there unlike what was suggested.

 

1♣-1N denies 5M but not 4M and 2♣ is staymanic over this not showing clubs. We play it split range 8-10 or 13+.

 

I was never clear what the difference was between 1♣-1N-3♣ and 1♣-1N-2♣-2any-3♣, but you have the same choice to make of bidding your clubs or just quantitively raising to 4N.

Sir,the way is there.1C-1NT-2NT shows the Club suit and it is not an "invitational" bid. 1C-1NT-2C is staymanish and responder bids 2D with 4 Hearts,bids 2H with 4 carder spades and both show 8-10 HCP.2NT reply shows no 4 card major or a five card minor and 8-10 HCP.A 3C reply shows 4 card club suit and another 4 card suit with 11-13 HCP,3D REPLY shows D AND H,3H shows H AND S,3S reply showsS AND D and 11-13 ,and a reply of 3NT shows a 5carder club suit and 11-13 HCP with any 3325 pattern.After an 8-10 hand is shown openers 3C is a relay and responder shows an outside 4 card suit by bidding it and else bids 3NT.SIR,there is more to all this if one wishes to know .Personally I do not like Meckstroths Precision using GOKHALE transfers as it is far too complicated.

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,the way is there.1C-1NT-2NT shows the Club suit and it is not an "invitational" bid. 1C-1NT-2C is staymanish and responder bids 2D with 4 Hearts,bids 2H with 4 carder spades and both show 8-10 HCP.2NT reply shows no 4 card major or a five card minor and 8-10 HCP.A 3C reply shows 4 card club suit and another 4 card suit with 11-13 HCP,3D REPLY shows D AND H,3H shows H AND S,3S reply showsS AND D and 11-13 ,and a reply of 3NT shows a 5carder club suit and 11-13 HCP with any 3325 pattern.After an 8-10 hand is shown openers 3C is a relay and responder shows an outside 4 card suit by bidding it and else bids 3NT.SIR,there is more to all this if one wishes to know .Personally I do not like Meckstroths Precision using GOKHALE transfers as it is far too complicated.

 

I play a very slightly modified version (12-15 NT 4 card diamond) of Reese's Precision from the 70s once a year, so no complicated stuff at all.

[gordontd]

Sir,this problem is faced in all systems in which there is a prepared opening bid'.This applies to all natural systems where 1C which can be 2+ cards in clubs.The same problem is faced when using strong club system whether Blue Club,Roman Club,Leghorn Diamond,various so called Precision systems, where 1D is a prepared bid.Any system (leave alone the conventions and gadgets) which can correctly bid 85% or more of all hands is, in my personal opinion,,an excellent system.Therein lies the charm and excitement in Bridge.One has to describe ones hand as correctly as possible and not deviate in the slightest from the principles of whichever system one is playing.It is futile to think that "if partner holds this and that then one will miss a game or slam".The partner is there very much alive to convey his hand.Hence one must not IMAGINE things irrationally.The less imagined the better.

I think you've missed the point and failed to answer the question.