How do you handle this

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&s=skq4hakdk5caqt842]133|100[/hv]

 

Your options initially: (acol ish, weak NT, 4M4m)

 

1♣ 4+clubs 11-22, you do have a GF unbalanced 2N rebid available over a 1 of a suit response

2N good 19-21 bal

2♣ then 2N balanced 22-23

 

2♣ then 3♣ is GF over a negative, you're not playing an immediate double negative so not a good idea

 

So how do you start ?

[eagles123]

i would show as 22-23 balanced

[Tramticket]

[hv=pc=n&s=skq4hakdk5caqt842]133|100[/hv]

 

Your options initially: (acol ish, weak NT, 4M4m)

 

1♣ 4+clubs 11-22, you do have a GF unbalanced 2N rebid available over a 1 of a suit response

2N good 19-21 bal

2♣ then 2N balanced 22-23

 

2♣ then 3♣ is GF over a negative, you're not playing an immediate double negative so not a good idea

 

So how do you start ?

 

It looks (almost) balanced to me. 2C then 2NT.

[Cyberyeti]

This was what I thought, and it made things really awkward, the problem is that slam can be laydown opposite an 8 count and you're not going to bid it (unless you're going to bid some hopeless ones too).

[ggwhiz]

This was what I thought, and it made things really awkward, the problem is that slam can be laydown opposite an 8 count and you're not going to bid it (unless you're going to bid some hopeless ones too).

 

2nt openers on shape like this is called the slam killer and 1♣ carries too much risk for my taste. Not just playing it there but a cheap lead directing overcall.

 

I don't see any better option than 2♣ followed by 2nt that would work except perhaps 2♣ followed by 3♣ (the glass 1/2 full game force) that hasn't blown off 3nt yet and might occur to me at imps as opposed to matchpoints.

[pescetom]

I would bid 2C then 2NT. If he has mild slam interest then he's probably going to stayman and if your methods allow he may still find a fit in clubs holding 4+cards himself.

[msjennifer]

If HCP is the sole criterion then 1C is the correct opening followed by 2NT as GF. One has to show the long club suit and as per the options given the only correct bid is 1C.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx, even upgrading to 22-23 we didn't bid slam, but gained an IMP by making 13. I'm glad most people did what I did, it's not clear we bid a slam after a 1♣ opener either.

[Cyberyeti]

If HCP is the sole criterion then 1C is the correct opening followed by 2NT as GF. One has to show the long club suit and as per the options given the only correct bid is 1C.

 

Which is great when partner has xxx, xxx, xxxx, Kxx and everybody else makes 3N while you make 1♣+several.

[ggwhiz]

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx,

 

2♣ - 2♦

3♣ - 3♠

3nt - 4♣ should get you there with 4nt by either player being to play as a safety valve.

 

I would be happy to find that once in a while and only at imps. We do play a double negative and 2♦ as a game force so it's more of a possibility for us.

[Cyberyeti]

2♣ - 2♦

3♣ - 3♠

3nt - 4♣ would get you there with 4nt by either player being to play as a safety valve.

 

I would be really happy to find that 1 out of 10 times and only at imps.

 

Yeah, but I'd not be happy having GFd opposite a 3451 yarborough.

[ggwhiz]

Yeah, but I'd not be happy having GFd opposite a 3451 yarborough.

 

We play 2♥ as 0-4 no A or K and 2♦ promises nothing but a game force and I like it a lot better than your 2nd negative where you know zero about shape a full level higher.

[Cyberyeti]

We play 2♥ as 0-4 no A or K and 2♦ promises nothing but a game force and I like it a lot better than your 2nd negative where you know zero about shape a full level higher.

 

As I said, the parameters of the problem in the OP were that you didn't play this, and 2♦ was negative, 3♣ GF over the negative.

 

And 0-4 screws you up when opener wanted to bid 2 hearts.

[HardVector]

My first thought was the same as a lot of others, 2c then 2n. I see what you mean by it being a slam killer, though, it's very control rich if your partner has clubs. I don't like 2c followed by 3c, I usually reserve that for hands that can take quick tricks, and this isn't that hand. My second choice would be to open 1c and if I get a response (it's a gamble, I know), jump shift to 2s. If partner bids 1s, I'd bid 4c, which should show a good 6 card suit with 4 card support, but that strikes me as superior to 3n which would have partner guessing.

 

This is a little out of the box, so I could understand a lot of disagreement, but these bids seem to describe the hand the best. I would only do something like this, though, if I felt I needed a swing in the scoring. The field should open 2c then rebid 2n, so doing that will be slightly below average at worst.

[Cyberyeti]

My first thought was the same as a lot of others, 2c then 2n. I see what you mean by it being a slam killer, though, it's very control rich if your partner has clubs. I don't like 2c followed by 3c, I usually reserve that for hands that can take quick tricks, and this isn't that hand. My second choice would be to open 1c and if I get a response (it's a gamble, I know), jump shift to 2s. If partner bids 1s, I'd bid 4c, which should show a good 6 card suit with 4 card support, but that strikes me as superior to 3n which would have partner guessing.

 

This is a little out of the box, so I could understand a lot of disagreement, but these bids seem to describe the hand the best. I would only do something like this, though, if I felt I needed a swing in the scoring. The field should open 2c then rebid 2n, so doing that will be slightly below average at worst.

 

One pair did this sort of thing and played 6♠ which didn't go well when spades were 5-1

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I would go with 1C - 2NT (showing an unbal. GF).

This should simplify finding a major suit fit, and also a possible club

slam.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[msjennifer]

Which is great when partner has xxx, xxx, xxxx, Kxx and everybody else makes 3N while you make 1♣+several.

Sir,as an exercise we dealt the remaining 39 cards many a times and found that partner almost always had 5+ HCP and the only occasion he did not have them the opponents always came in as it was easy to do so at 1 level.IN short.we never missed any thing.According to the options provided this 21 HCP hands sits only in 1c opening which does indicate a 4+ club suit.Any other bid will mean upgrading the hand or misrepresenting it as a balanced one which I personally feel is not. When playing PRECISION we do not have problem as the 1C opening is forcing for 1 round .

[P_Marlowe]

Sir,as an exercise we dealt the remaining 39 cards many a times and found that partner almost always had 5+ HCP and the only occasion he did not have them the opponents always came in as it was easy to do so at 1 level.IN short.we never missed any thing.According to the options provided this 21 HCP hands sits only in 1c opening which does indicate a 4+ club suit.Any other bid will mean upgrading the hand or misrepresenting it as a balanced one which I personally feel is not.

My argument would be, that missing 3NT, with partner having 0-5HCP, partner needs to have the King of clubs (*),

this is possible, but more likely is, he does not have the King of clubs (*).

If you open 1C, you risk getting passed out, happens, but not very likely.

On the pro side, if we survive the 1st round, we are in pretty good shape describing our hand, partner will know,

that the King of Clubs is likely to be Gold.

In the end, make your decision, and live with the result.

 

(*) The Ace of diamonds may also be enough ..., but he may not pass with an Ace.

 

With knd regards

Marlowe

[msjennifer]

My argument would be, that missing 3NT, with partner having 0-5HCP, partner needs to have the King of clubs (*),

this is possible, but more likely is, he does not have the King of clubs (*).

If you open 1C, you risk getting passed out, happens, but not very likely.

On the pro side, if we survive the 1st round, we are in pretty good shape describing our hand, partner will know,

that the King of Clubs is likely to be Gold.

In the end, make your decision, and live with the result.

 

(*) The Ace of diamonds may also be enough ..., but he may not pass with an Ace.

 

With knd regards

Marlowe

Sir.thanks a lot. with respect and regards.Miss Jennifer Jones

[maartenxq]

 

So how do you start ?

Difficult. If p has nothing opening 2 nt can be a disaster, while opening 1♣

can miss game. After long hesitation, which at the table would be inappropriate, I decide to try your 1 ♣and hopefully 2 nt GF jump. As this is unbalanced it gives us also a better chance to bid slam in ♣.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[nekthen]

One of those hands where you are happiest playing some sort of almost GF bid. Like 2C where 2D is the GF or the dreaded multi 2D. This looks like 1C 1 any 2N given the system declared.

What is partner supposed to do after 2N 3c 3N?

[maartenxq]

Partner's hand was A10xx, Qxxx, xx, Kxx, even upgrading to 22-23 we didn't bid slam, but gained an IMP by making 13. I'm glad most people did what I did, it's not clear we bid a slam after a 1♣ opener either.

I did not read this before answering.

Maarten Baltussen

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,as an exercise we dealt the remaining 39 cards many a times and found that partner almost always had 5+ HCP and the only occasion he did not have them the opponents always came in as it was easy to do so at 1 level.IN short.we never missed any thing.According to the options provided this 21 HCP hands sits only in 1c opening which does indicate a 4+ club suit.Any other bid will mean upgrading the hand or misrepresenting it as a balanced one which I personally feel is not. When playing PRECISION we do not have problem as the 1C opening is forcing for 1 round .

 

How do you actually bid this in old style precision ? same sort of problem, 1♣-1N- do you show it as balanced or show your clubs ? You've also wrongsided 6N.

[P_Marlowe]

How do you actually bid this in old style precision ? same sort of problem, 1♣-1N- do you show it as balanced or show your clubs ? You've also wrongsided 6N.

I dont know old style precision, (*) but my guess is, that 1C - 1NT denies 4 card majors.

On average partner will have diamond values, i.e. Kx in diamond, faces an empty dimaond length?

The strong hand hits the table? Happens.

Regarding as what to sell the hand: I would use the lowest bid to sell my hand.

My guess: this would be bal, perfectly fine.

In your original frame work, it would be gf with clubs, also pretty fine.

 

You can upgrade the hand to a 2NT / 2C opener, will work some of the time, and wont work the rest

of it. And thats it.

It will be hard to bid slam, facing a 6-10 bal. hand, when I sell my hand as bal. 20-23, because

partner wont have an idea, that the king of clubs produces 6 tricks.

Similar it will be hard to get him excited, if I limit my hand to 20/21, even when I am showing a

source of tricks, and this is even more so, when I regular sell my 18/19 HCP hands as 20/21 hands,

i.e. when my shown strength includes the length adjustments, dont get me wrong: upgrading is completly

fine, but partner will take my upgrading strategy into consideration, and act accordingly.

 

(*) I am, stupid enough to ignore the question, why it should be relevant, how to bid this hand in a

different system.

[Cyberyeti]

I dont know old style precision, (*) but my guess is, that 1C - 1NT denies 4 card majors.

On average partner will have diamond values, i.e. Kx in diamond, faces an empty dimaond length?

The strong hand hits the table? Happens.

Regarding as what to sell the hand: I would use the lowest bid to sell my hand.

My guess: this would be bal, perfectly fine.

In your original frame work, it would be gf with clubs, also pretty fine.

 

You can upgrade the hand to a 2NT / 2C opener, will work some of the time, and wont work the rest

of it. And thats it.

It will be hard to bid slam, facing a 6-10 bal. hand, when I sell my hand as bal. 20-23, because

partner wont have an idea, that the king of clubs produces 6 tricks.

Similar it will be hard to get him excited, if I limit my hand to 20/21, even when I am showing a

source of tricks, and this is even more so, when I regular sell my 18/19 HCP hands as 20/21 hands,

i.e. when my shown strength includes the length adjustments, dont get me wrong: upgrading is completly

fine, but partner will take my upgrading strategy into consideration, and act accordingly.

 

(*) I am, stupid enough to ignore the question, why it should be relevant, how to bid this hand in a

different system.

 

I just posed the question because I also play old style precision and I don't think it's easy there unlike what was suggested.

 

1♣-1N denies 5M but not 4M and 2♣ is staymanic over this not showing clubs. We play it split range 8-10 or 13+.

 

I was never clear what the difference was between 1♣-1N-3♣ and 1♣-1N-2♣-2any-3♣, but you have the same choice to make of bidding your clubs or just quantitively raising to 4N.