hrothgar Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 In short, the decision to open 1♦ on an x=x=4=5 pattern is predicated on the decision to rebid 2♣. And now you expect your partner to do something intelligent with a hand like AxxxxQxJxxxxx 1♦ - 1♠2♣ - ?? "Guess what I have partner, 5-4 or 4-5, or maybe even 6-4". To me it is not at all natural to bid a shorter suit before a longer. I don't want to guess whether I have to pass or give preference to diamonds with the hand above. I bid 2♦ 100 times out of 100, and it really isn't my problem if you are struggling in your 4-3 fit, no matter at which level you decide to play. You will never convince me that you have more clubs than diamonds. I will keep giving preference to diamonds. Roland Funny, to me its quite un-natural to bid 1NT with a stiff, or worse yet a void...Worse yet, rebidding 2m on a crappy 5 card suit Assume the following hand VoidK432AKQ765432 Auction start 1♣ - 1♠ LOVE to see your suggest rebid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Assume the following hand VoidK432AKQ765432 Auction start 1♣ - 1♠ LOVE to see your suggest rebid.... In an earlier post i clearly stated that occasionally one may decide to open 1♦ on 4-5 with an extreme hand like yours, BUT if I do, I take the full blame for ending up in a 4-3 rather than a 5-3 fit. This is the exception to the rule, and responder can never be blamed for assuming 5-4 for the rest of this auction. You can bid clubs from now on all you like; partner will just and should only assume 5-5, 6-5, 6-6 or 7-6. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 HaHa Sorry for beating a dead horse but still think the panel disccussion missed the boat on this one...and most of posters are putting the cart before the horse; mixing a few metaphors. I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink. Hi Mike I was a 2NT bidder on this handAlso surprised not to see it even mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 With G/B 2NT, 2NT. Without it, yuck. 3D probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I am still lost on how everyone here is going to differentiate a competitive 3d or x from a decent invite? I strongly disagree that playing this hand in Moysian 4-3 D fit on the few reasonable hands where p has made a free bid of 2c is the number one issue. Please don't shoot the messenger but I guess you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink. Could be because the experts on the panel strongly believe that partner is at least 5-4 in the minors, and not the other way around. You and others are entitled to disagree obviously, but that is how the vast majority of us see it. And we also knew that good/bad 2NT was not available. If that is worth a laugh, please go ahead and enjoy. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I agree. I prefer bids that are clear. Regardless of the merits of opening 1D on a 4D 5C (which I think are close to inexistent, but ok), I would very much prefer to play 1D plus 2C rebid as 5D 4C. Do you realize the sheer idiocy of this comment?Watch your language, hrothgar. You have no right to address to me like that. Any more of it and I'm reporting you. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 A 3D bid shows constructive values or a min invite, like 8-11ish support points. That range is pretty bulky, but not too much so. With less and a fit you have to pass, with more you have to do something else (X, cuebid, or jump to 4D depending on your hand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Who or where defines dbl is more than 3♦? Besides, my 2 Aces are worth more than a "typical" 8 hcps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 If you X and THEN BID 3D, that is stronger than a direct 3D (otherwise why did you X). I agree, the hand is more than a typical 8, you'll note i said the range is 8-11 supp points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 BTW, I wish everyone would stop bemoaning the lack of good/bad 2N. You can't just play whatever conventions you want at the time because they fit well for the hand. If you play good/bad you get a new hand: KQx AQxxx xx xxx The whole point of a bidding problem is to be just that, a problem. Busting out a specialized convention is not possible in a real world setting where you don't play the convention, why should it be here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Before the MSC started I noted my objection to using BBO Advanced because the bidding system wasn't documented to the depth necessary for this exercise... If I am playing in a (presumably) expert level partnership, I expect to have some idea regarding whether or not Good?bad NT is available as an option... Its a little annoying to participate in a graded exercise and recieve a zero for a hand because I made a mistaken assumption regarding what is/is not part of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I'm not sure why you would expect good/bad to be part of the system. If it was, a footnote would/should be added. This reminds me of a rubber bridge game I play in. The first time i played the auction went: 1N p 2C p 2D p ? I was 4-5 in the majors so i bid 3S (smolen) since the people in the game were compton/bramley/my dad at this point. Well apparantly these guys didnt know smolen because my pard raised to 4 :P Anyways, I am a firm believer that system should not be a big part of these problems, they should be judgement oriented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 If you X and THEN BID 3D, that is stronger than a direct 3D (otherwise why did you X). I agree, the hand is more than a typical 8, you'll note i said the range is 8-11 supp points. Thanks Justin, this was the type of deep disussion and analysis I was hoping for. I did not expect good/bad 2nt to be part of system and expected a low score. Note I said "hardest hand of set". As Ben said no expert bemoaned the loss of it and that says alot. Hopefully you and other experts will "moan" if some commonly used expert convention is left out. Otherwise hopefully you can tell us, as you did here, how you solved the problem using common sense expert style. Thanks again for feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 well the X then bid diamond approach isn't perfect by any means. Sometimes if you have a sound invite you just have to force to game, it just depends on your hand. Xing would tend to suggest a more cooperative hand though, so with a stiff spade I wouldnt reccomend it :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeartA Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 If you X and THEN BID 3D, that is stronger than a direct 3D (otherwise why did you X). I agree, the hand is more than a typical 8, you'll note i said the range is 8-11 supp points. No, I didn't intend to bid again after my dbl unless my pd forces me to (which is not likely). I would pass over 3C/3D or even 3H (if possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpenz Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 3♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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