Precision

[euclidz]

Is there a generic term for those bidding systems (like Precision) that predominantly have first and second round bids that must be alerted because the bids are not 'true'?

Why? My Bridge club would like to discourage anyone who plays those systems from joining the club. Why? The majority of the members of the Club want to enjoy their evening and find Precision so irritating that they would prefer to discourage anyone playing that system from joining the club. So rather than listing Precision players and other similar systems on the web site as systems discouraged it would be easier if there was a generic term for those systems - is there a generic term for those systems?

[Cyberyeti]

Strong club systems, or artificial systems (covers strong diamond/big NT/polish club too).

 

You need to be careful, precision in the form I occasionally play (with a 4 card diamond) is arguably more natural in many ways than standard or 2/1.

[hrothgar]

You could probably achieve the same end by banning everyone under the age of 50...

[helene_t]

At the Lancaster club, the director of the novice night decided that the novices should be shielded against confusing systems, so she made her own interpretation of "Acol" the only allowed system. People were only allowed to play natural, Acol-style agreements (1♣ must show 4+ clubs) except that take-out doubles of an opening bid, the 2♣ opening, stayman and jacoby transfers were allowed. The only allowed notrump range was 12-14.

 

You might consider something like this. If you really want to ban Precision, which is the simplest and most natural system ever designed, you presumably want to ban almost anything. So better to list what is allowed instead of listing what is banned. The list will be shorter.

[euclidz]

You could probably achieve the same end by banning everyone under the age of 50...

 

I'd be very interested to know why you believe that would achieve the same end?

[DozyDom]

I'd be very interested to know why you believe that would achieve the same end?

Because stifling anyone who puts thought into what they want to play will arguably mean restricting your club to only the old and hidebound.

 

 

Despite my irritation with the attitude of your club, I'm sure there's an easy way to restrict other players to non-artificial systems. You could restrict your sessions to Level 2 systems - the lowest level of EBU permissions, used entirely for Improvers' events, Novice events and "Play without the experts events". Surely that will mean no one can play any scary, mean systems that might annoy your players? Oh, the EBU has permitted Precision at even learner events since before I was born? Crazy.

 

In all honesty, apologies for my snide tone. But having a strong bid at the one level rather than the two level is something your players should be embarrassed to be worried about.

[Tramticket]

Let's ban Precision. And the multi, and 4th suit forcing, and transfers, and take out doubles,and weak twos, and weak threes, and Blackwood, and Stayman and .....

 

... anyone who doesn't wear black tie and tuxedo, and....

 

... Anyone who is better than me.

[Cyberyeti]

Restricting to level 2 might remove some of the complicated artificial agreements, but will also probably remove some things that your regulars play that are way more complicated than anything in simple precision.

[The_Badger]

You could probably achieve the same end by banning everyone under the age of 50...

 

I remember many, many years ago that my school partner and myself, as wet-behind--the-ears teenagers, walloped a club full of seasoned professionals on a Pairs night with Wei Precision scoring over 70% at our first visit! Many eyebrows were raised, and I'm sure behind closed doors there were some unsatisfactory comments made. It was just that most of the hands that night were a dream for any Precision bidders, and we were the only ones.

 

I agree Precision is irritating (hurrah!) but only to the old fogey club brigade who see it as a threat that take their club out of its comfort zone.

 

By the way, goodness knows what they would make of Fantunes...

[msjennifer]

You could probably achieve the same end by banning everyone under the age of 50...

Sir,I wholeheartedly agree.I n fact such clubs should not only discourage the new applicants but ban them by putting a mandatory condition 'Apply only if you agree to play the system which others play in this club'

[Real Goren]

I wish more people take to PRECISION as this is a much more logical system than standard or 2/1 or Acol or what have you.

[msjennifer]

The 'PRECISION' system of bidding was formulated by C C WEI and became quite popular amongst the young and ambitious old players in the seventies.Later GOREN wrote his version of that.ANDERSON wrote Power Precision.BELADONNA AND GAROZZO wrote the SUPER PRECISION.Lastly an anonymous author wrote BLUE PRECISION SYSTEM ,a system which incorporated some features of the Italian Blue Club system in the basics of precision system so that one could open in a FOUR card major and bid the FIVE card minor next round the CANAPE style.The Super Precision system is a very aggressive system and one must not deviate from the principles described therein..The four card major Blue Precision system makes it a joy to play with the forcing 1NT reply ,which may have 6 to14 HCP.TO shorten my note,AKxx-AKJx-xx-xxx is opened ONE SPADE and not 1 NT although the 1NT range is 13/15.I can go on and on.I very much like the Precision system and will always prefer it to any standard system which I also like very much.

[msjennifer]

Let's ban Precision. And the multi, and 4th suit forcing, and transfers, and take out doubles,and weak twos, and weak threes, and Blackwood, and Stayman and .....

 

... anyone who doesn't wear black tie and tuxedo, and....

 

... Anyone who is better than me.

Very well said,SIR.

[dsLawsd]

The membership can decide the issue. Most clubs run more than one section and can specify what conventions are allowed in each.

Now we should want to promote the game and increase membership and people playing the game. If the club is in action most days and nights you should be fine. But experimentation is a part of the growth of the game while bad conduct is the detractor.

 

Remember when bid boxes were not in wide use? People adapt.

Perhaps you could run a separate game during the month that only players with a certain level play in the top section and others in other sections ?

I am sure you can work something out and emphasize lessons for less experienced players.

[Cyberyeti]

I had a system banned once at a local club (without ever playing it there). At the time, the system regulations in the UK were contained in the orange book, we decided to push the regulations as far as we could while developing a playable system, this was known as Clockwork orange, and its 2 crowning glories were attending one of the local clubs with 3 pairs playing it and sitting so you played them one after the other outraging some of the members, and the county captain on discovering it was legal at one of the lower licensing levels literally falling off his chair. The guy that ran one of the other local clubs decided this would be far too much for his crowd of octagenarians and banned it from being played there on the spot.

 

It's demise was the EBU changing the regulations and inadvertently banning some of the combinations, but only because they didn't think anybody would want to do such a thing. Changing the rules for stuff allowed in a 1♣ opener from "natural with diamonds" to "a hand with diamonds as the longest suit" banned the diamond/major canapes for example.

[geo]

PRECISION IS A GOOD SYSTEM ...LOOK MECKWELL...WHOIS SYSTEM IS BASED ON STRONG CLUB

BUT NEED BE PLAYED CORRECTLY AND WITH MANY ADDICTION

IN MORE SEQUENCES IS MORE NAT.THAN 2/1

2/1)MODERN) IS V WELL TOO AND NOW ITIS IN TRAND

[euclidz]

My Club plays just one evening a week unchanged for the past 60 years. We seek and encourage new members from the broadest demographic possible and specifically play of an evening (at our cost because we pay for room hire which we could have free during the day) to be available to younger (working/student) members The reason we might want to ban artificial systems is because other clubs in our area have lost members because they will not play against such systems not because they can't compete against them but because the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating. You (all) will know that there are different 'clubs' within BBO one of which is the Acol Club and the rules there are that anyone playing there must play Acol. And, you will also know that within the Acol system and within the Acol Club there are many artificial bids (conventions). It's not about old people fixed in their ways its about striking a balance between enjoying competition and giving up you life to learning every system there is.

[euclidz]

Why does the EBU preclude some artificial bids but not preclude Precision which is pretty much all artificial bids? I ask the question because I don't know the reasons and I'd like to know?

[DozyDom]

Why does the EBU preclude some artificial bids but not preclude Precision which is pretty much all artificial bids? I ask the question because I don't know the reasons and I'd like to know?

"Pretty much all artificial bids" is not a great description.

 

1!C is an artificial opening; most players playing it will have 1-2 artificial bids in response (showing negative responses) and all others natural. 1!D will often be quite ambiguous in a precision setting, and won't always promise a diamond suit; responses to it are usually natural.

2!D in a precision setting will often show short diamonds, and will have natural responses.

That's 3 artificial bids, only one of which is ambiguous with regards to hand type. Only 1!C needs any kind of artifical defence, and I say"needs" in a very loose sense.

 

By contrast, Benji Acol (which I'm guessing many players at your club play, and none would object to) uses 2C and 2D both as ambiguous, strong bids, with a forced relay in response. Why are they so hung up about a system where there's only one such strong artificial bid? Others will play a multi 2D, perhaps with multiple strong options - a far more ambiguous and artificial convention than anything in standard precision, and much much harder to defend against.

 

I think the main problem that your club members have with precision is probably that they don't play against it often, and is nothing to do with it being "highly artificial".

 

 

 

I should also point out that, yes, the EBU does preclude some artificiality, but it's far more kind than you seem to think it is. Very few common systems are restricted by the EBU. Moscito is the most well-known system I can think of that's not allowed at Level 4 - it uses every 1-level bid for an artificial purpose.

[DozyDom]

My Club plays just one evening a week unchanged for the past 60 years. We seek and encourage new members from the broadest demographic possible and specifically play of an evening (at our cost because we pay for room hire which we could have free during the day) to be available to younger (working/student) members The reason we might want to ban artificial systems is because other clubs in our area have lost members because they will not play against such systems not because they can't compete against them but because the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating. You (all) will know that there are different 'clubs' within BBO one of which is the Acol Club and the rules there are that anyone playing there must play Acol. And, you will also know that within the Acol system and within the Acol Club there are many artificial bids (conventions). It's not about old people fixed in their ways its about striking a balance between enjoying competition and giving up you life to learning every system there is.

The Acol Club has no such restriction. I don't know where you've heard that.

 

You can check their FAQs if you want:

http://www.acolbridgeclub.com/faqs

[Cyberyeti]

The only alertable openers in the precision I play are 1♣ (16+) and 2♦ (34)15 or 4405, 1♦ is 4+ cards but marginally alertable because it may contain longer clubs.

 

The longest sequence of artificial "precision" bids I can get is 3 bids (compare simple things like kokish where you get 4).

 

Yes if people are playing relay precision or full asking bids, you may want to ban that, but my version of Acol is way more complicated than my version of precision.

[heart76]

My Club plays just one evening a week unchanged for the past 60 years. We seek and encourage new members from the broadest demographic possible and specifically play of an evening (at our cost because we pay for room hire which we could have free during the day) to be available to younger (working/student) members The reason we might want to ban artificial systems is because other clubs in our area have lost members because they will not play against such systems not because they can't compete against them but because the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating. You (all) will know that there are different 'clubs' within BBO one of which is the Acol Club and the rules there are that anyone playing there must play Acol. And, you will also know that within the Acol system and within the Acol Club there are many artificial bids (conventions). It's not about old people fixed in their ways its about striking a balance between enjoying competition and giving up you life to learning every system there is.

 

I think you should reconsider your point of view. You do not actually encourage any young or dynamic or bright bridge player to play at your club. You are not actually trying to achieve any balance.

Doesn't your bridge federation have rules about what's allowed or disallowed in each type of event?

And I do really believe that the matter is not the pace nor the alerts. The matter is that one needs defense over multiple type of new systems, which is a mental effort that many don't want to spend. This causes underbidding, overbidding, etc. In one word, losing.

If the club board is scared about old members leaving, I'm afraid your dilemma is between recreation and serious playing.

In the end, a serious partnership chooses their system according to their style, preferences, what's simpler for them. It's a degree of freedom.

[nekthen]

the game slows to a snails pace when every call is alerted and explained; it's disruptive and irritating.

 

When playing against any artificial system, resist the urge to ask what an alert means. You will be amazed how often opps do not know the answer! If you have no intention of bidding do not ask, ever. If you are confused at the end of the auction, use your right to ask about the bidding. Much faster.

 

Also, how often do you need to ask the meaning of a 1 club bid?

[hrothgar]

I'd be very interested to know why you believe that would achieve the same end?

 

Because the attitude that you are expressing - "Lets simply things by removing anything that is unfamiliar to me" - is one that I associate with the elderly.

 

Moreover, in my experience, organizations that adopt these sorts of policies are pretty much just treading water, waiting to die.

[Caitlynne]

Well, your club certainly is free to make whatever membership rule it might like, but banning systems by name or label is difficult thing to do.

 

Precision is a strong, artificial, and forcing 1C system. There are many others of these - Blue Club, Schenken Club, Ultimate Club, and LORI Club are among the several that I am familiar with.

 

But is it only the strong variety among artificial club systems that your club membership finds so irritating? What about the not strong and yet still forcing varieties such as, but certainly not limited to, the Polish Club and Roman Club systems?

 

What if the artificial club system is neither strong nor forcing? There are many such systems. I play such a system. 1C shows either 4+ clubs and a non-balanced hand or a balanced hand that other might have opened 1NT when holding it.

 

In fact, any "natural" approach forcing system in which the 1C opening bid may be made on as few as two clubs - e.g., 2/1 playing 5 card majors and 4+ diamonds - would be an artificial 1C system if the ACBL did not go out of its way to define a 1C bid as natural if. when it may be opened with only a 2 card club holding, the hand features exactly four spades, exactly four hearts, and exactly three diamonds. Regardless, certainly there is nothing innately natural about bidding 1C on a 2 card holding.

 

Club systems will continue to exist and can be expected to remain popular. That is a reality that your club needs to grapple with.