How the heck should we proceed

[gszes]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa743haq62da7ca63]133|100[/hv]

 

You are the opening bidder imps no one vulnerable close match 10 boards to go 2/1 no special agreements 5533

1c p 1s p

 

There was a fairly lively discussion on how best to proceed when this hand hit the table as dummy:))) sooooo I decided it might be a good idea to hear from the best of the best on how to proceed:

[helene_t]

Without any special agreements you just bid 4♠. 3♠ is ok on an 18 count but with four aces I think it is 4♠.

 

If 3♦ is a splinter, maybe you can use 4♦ as the non-splinter spade raise.

[apollo1201]

Game supports (18-19) by opener the way I play them:

- 3NT flat raise (my bid here therefore)

- 4m strong 64

- splinters and fake reverses if too strong

- 4M mostly 5422 hands (can be swapped with 3NT)

 

You need to distinguish hands with a source of tricks from hands less suitable for slam since you are blowing all the bidding space. I guess declarer was disappointed by dummy's clubs playing 6S.

[msjennifer]

After a suit fit is found we use the LTC.At first we presume that 1S bid has been made on 9 losers.The given hand has 6 losers.Hence our bid is 18 minus nine minus 6 equal to three, so 3 spade.If responder has 8 losers he bids 4S and is free to proceed to investigate slam with less losers as his hand warrants, using RKCB or cue bids or whatever.We do not pay any heed to HCP after a fit has been found.Since this is a beginners and others column still I need not mention that a combined 5HCP MAY make a Grand Slam in any SUIT and most consideration be given to the number vof losers and not necessarily the HCP when a fit is discovered.Wild distributions of cards with the opponents may defeat this method but then it can happen with ANY of the other approaches.HCP plus length in a suits comes into play in NT contracts.But even therein does not Axx-Ax-Ax-AKQJ109 that is 22 HCP opposite zero HCP produce a cold 3NT when the books say 25/26 HCP are required ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

[Tramticket]

After a suit fit is found we use the LTC.At first we presume that 1S bid has been made on 9 losers.The given hand has 6 losers.

 

What is your method for counting losers? Do you make no allowance for the presence of all four aces?

 

Do you asign the same loser count to ♠Q743 ♥AQ62 ♦Q7 ♣Q63?

[The_Badger]

Without any special agreements you just bid 4♠. 3♠ is ok on an 18 count but with four aces I think it is 4♠.

 

If 3♦ is a splinter, maybe you can use 4♦ as the non-splinter spade raise.

 

I like this +1, Helene. My thoughts are that if you agree ♠ here, there is a slight chance that you might miss out on a 4-4 ♥ fit. Even though it is TOTALLY unconventional, I like 2♥ here as a reverse force.

 

The reason's for 2♥. 1. It is forcing. 2. ♠ are the top suit so you can always bid them later. 3. You might find that 4-4 ♥ fit, and the presumed 5-4 ♠ fit will allow you to dispose of one your losers. 4. Partner will have another bid to define his hand further 5. Four aces in a trump contract is gold dust.

 

The downsides to 2♥ is that partner might totally misinterpret the bid, think you have ♣s and ♥s, and if you use RKCB after there could be a misunderstanding.

 

Without any firm agreements the sensible bid is 4♠. The trouble with that is as partner is aceless, he might be reluctant to bid RKCB and you need so little for slam to be viable.

 

You need agreements here! lol

[GrahamJson]

Like some others I believe that 4S is the sensible bid. Even with no agreements a good partner will assume that you have something like this as you didn’t splinter or jump in a new suit.

[GrahamJson]

Like some others I believe that 4S is the sensible bid. Even with no agreements a good partner will assume that you have something like this as you didn’t splinter or jump in a new suit.

[Cyberyeti]

Absent a gadget you have 2 choices:

 

4♠ or fake reverse then keep bidding spades.

 

Until we adjusted our 2N range, I also used to use 3N as the flat raise.

[msjennifer]

What is your method for counting losers? Do you make no allowance for the presence of all four aces?

 

Do you asign the same loser count to ♠Q743 ♥AQ62 ♦Q7 ♣Q63?

Sir,we count the losers ONLY IF A. SUIT FIT IS FOUND and not otherwise where we use the HCP count. There is no\thing for holding all four aces

I shall never open this hand.There are no 2 and half defensive tricks.It does not have a five carder suit.IT has only 2 controls.We count the losers asany missing A,K,Q in a suit.Qxx in any suit is counted as two and half losers

but QJx is counted as 2 losers..The hand described by you has seven and half losers as Qxxx is counted as 2 losers. but only if a suit fit is found These guide lines are based upon the books written on the losing tricks count by experts.It is beyond my capacity to deviate from them.Fore a beginner or novice it is enough to remember Qxx as only two losers.i would like to present a real life hand which helped us win a tournament. pard held Qxxx-AQxxx-void-10542 .over RHO'S WEAK 13/115 NT he bid 2C ,LANDY,IF a fit is found then this hand has 6 losers.I .his partner, passed holding x,-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx.His RHO bid 2D and partner raised to 3C knowing fully well that I held a 6 card club suit and 9 presumed losers for my pass.Since I had only 6 losers I bid 5C over my RHO'S 4S.which was doubled and made with one overtrick.18 minus 6 minus 6 =6.in another instance I held xxx,Qxxx,Qxx,Qxx.Pard opened one heart which I raised to 2h.MY pard bid 2NT,a SST showing a singleton spade and and 6 loser hand requesting me to bid 4h with any three of the three donors in outside suits.we made it very comfortably.Pardon me but I humbly and sincerely,did not want to give the details, which can be had in any books on LTT.SST and LST as the column is for novices and beginners..,neither do I advise anyone to use these gadgets.Also the losers count changes as per opponents intervening bids.

[Tramticket]

There is no\thing for holding all four aces

 

 

My point was that, just as you are willing to downgrade a Q (treating QXX as two and a half losers), most would upgrade aces (AXX is clearly worth more than KXX for example). I would suggest that treating this hand as a six-loser hand seriously under-values the hand.

[pescetom]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa743haq62da7ca63]133|100[/hv]

 

You are the opening bidder imps no one vulnerable close match 10 boards to go 2/1 no special agreements 5533

1c p 1s p

 

4♠ shows a hand much like opener has, 4-card fit in a strong hand without singletons.

It seems to me a fairly clear choice, as the alternatives are all flawed in some way:

- 2NT denies 4-card fit

- 2♥ suggests 5-card ♣, and if partner doesn't raise ♥ then good luck convincing him later on that you have 4-card ♠

- 3♠ shows 4-card fit, but in a weaker and less balanced hand than this - partner might well pass

- 3NT or 4NT you have no agreement.

[Cyberyeti]

Sir,we count the losers ONLY IF A. SUIT FIT IS FOUND and not otherwise where we use the HCP count. There is no\thing for holding all four aces

I shall never open this hand.There are no 2 and half defensive tricks.It does not have a five carder suit.IT has only 2 controls.We count the losers asany missing A,K,Q in a suit.Qxx in any suit is counted as two and half losers

but QJx is counted as 2 losers..The hand described by you has seven and half losers as Qxxx is counted as 2 losers. but only if a suit fit is found These guide lines are based upon the books written on the losing tricks count by experts.It is beyond my capacity to deviate from them.Fore a beginner or novice it is enough to remember Qxx as only two losers.i would like to present a real life hand which helped us win a tournament. pard held Qxxx-AQxxx-void-10542 .over RHO'S WEAK 13/115 NT he bid 2C ,LANDY,IF a fit is found then this hand has 6 losers.I .his partner, passed holding x,-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx.His RHO bid 2D and partner raised to 3C knowing fully well that I held a 6 card club suit and 9 presumed losers for my pass.Since I had only 6 losers I bid 5C over my RHO'S 4S.which was doubled and made with one overtrick.18 minus 6 minus 6 =6.in another instance I held xxx,Qxxx,Qxx,Qxx.Pard opened one heart which I raised to 2h.MY pard bid 2NT,a SST showing a singleton spade and and 6 loser hand requesting me to bid 4h with any three of the three donors in outside suits.we made it very comfortably.Pardon me but I humbly and sincerely,did not want to give the details, which can be had in any books on LTT.SST and LST as the column is for novices and beginners..,neither do I advise anyone to use these gadgets.Also the losers count changes as per opponents intervening bids.

 

Pretty much everybody in this world opens the hand given in first seat and it's losing bridge not to. If partner passes the hand out with his flat 10 you just scored a completely unnecessary 0.

[ncohen]

Not a good time for LTC. It values As the same as Qs, and so would undervalue this hand. That's especially true since the Q is with an A, and so "promoted." A Q by itself may be worthless if P has XXX. The Q with the A is worth 3/4 of a trick (it's a trick unless the K is with RHO).

 

 

 

After a suit fit is found we use the LTC.At first we presume that 1S bid has been made on 9 losers.The given hand has 6 losers.Hence our bid is 18 minus nine minus 6 equal to three, so 3 spade.If responder has 8 losers he bids 4S and is free to proceed to investigate slam with less losers as his hand warrants, using RKCB or cue bids or whatever.We do not pay any heed to HCP after a fit has been found.Since this is a beginners and others column still I need not mention that a combined 5HCP MAY make a Grand Slam in any SUIT and most consideration be given to the number vof losers and not necessarily the HCP when a fit is discovered.Wild distributions of cards with the opponents may defeat this method but then it can happen with ANY of the other approaches.HCP plus length in a suits comes into play in NT contracts.But even therein does not Axx-Ax-Ax-AKQJ109 that is 22 HCP opposite zero HCP produce a cold 3NT when the books say 25/26 HCP are required ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

/

[neilkaz]

For me in the US 2/1 world, this is a WTP 4♠ bid showing what I have (no splinter) and that I expect to have good play for game opposite a dead minimum 1♠ response from PD.

[rmnka447]

For me this hand is right on the cusp between a 3 ♠ and a 4 ♠ raise. The 4 As make it more than an 18 point hand, but the hand is a bit of "As and spaces" with no supporting cards to up the trick taking potential.

 

But in a team game, I think I'm going to be aggressive and just bid 4 ♠. Now, non-vulnerable game going decisions are pretty much a wash as to whether you bid them or not in an IMP setting. But I'd bid it anyhow for a couple reasons. First, bidding and making thin games is a winning IMP strategy. I think I can defend that kind of decision in the post mortem, but wouldn't want to be explaining why I didn't bid game when it makes. Second, partner didn't bid 1 ♥, so partner isn't 4-4, so maybe the relative shortness in the minors can be useful to partner. Also, a reasonable portion of the time a 1 ♠ response is on a 5 card suit which tends to reduce overall losers.

[Winstonm]

Seems the problem with this hand must have come about because: a) you either missed game with a 3S bid or B) you 4S and went down.

 

There are only two considerations IMO. First, in the point count system, aces are undervalued. Holding all 4 aces increases the strength of the hand. Second, playing imps, it pays to bid close games, especially vulnerable. Usually around a 40% or slightly less is fine.

 

Playing imps, I would have bid 4S with this hand. If it goes down, it rates to be a push unless we are playing a quite weak team or one that is swinging wildly.

[irishcafes]

Nobody appears to have directly asked the key question - What did Pd promise with her one spade bid? My partnership will answer with any reasonable 5hcp. Thus, our 3 spade bid is much stronger than average. 3S says - Did you really have your 1S call? (about 6+) If so, bid 4. However, if 1S shows 7+ always, then 3 spades is too weak at IMPS, as Pd's minimum hand is sufficient for game. When asking what is the right bid in any auction, one must know the language being used or the answer is useless.

[smerriman]

My partnership will answer with any reasonable 5hcp. Thus, our 3 spade bid is much stronger than average. 3S says - Did you really have your 1S call? (about 6+) If so, bid 4.

What do you bid with invitational hands?

[msjennifer]

Pretty much everybody in this world opens the hand given in first seat and it's losing bridge not to. If partner passes the hand out with his flat 10 you just scored a completely unnecessary 0.

SIR,Thanks a lot for your valued comments .I shall certainly give them a try. HOWEVER, I am a ,what many would call , BOOKWORM.I do not deviate from the logics put therein as it would amount to insulting those experts.And truthfully following those have always helped me in that partner can not blame me.for making any fancy bids .However,there is no harm in trying after prior agreements.To give a paradoxical example.many players in our local sessions open a hand freely holding QJx-QJx-QJx-QJxx as 1 Club.

They justify that by pointing out that they have 12 HCP which is 2HCP more than the arithmetical average of 10 HCP.

[Tramticket]

SIR,Thanks a lot for your valued comments .I shall certainly give them a try. HOWEVER, I am a ,what many would call , BOOKWORM.I do not deviate from the logics put therein as it would amount to insulting those experts.And truthfully following those have always helped me in that partner can not blame me.for making any fancy bids .However,there is no harm in trying after prior agreements.To give a paradoxical example.many players in our local sessions open a hand freely holding QJx-QJx-QJx-QJxx as 1 Club.

They justify that by pointing out that they have 12 HCP which is 2HCP more than the arithmetical average of 10 HCP.

 

There is nothing wrong with learning from books - I have quite a large collection.

 

There are some good books around which will help you develop your judgement around hand valuation and move on from a simple counting exercise. I recommend Hand Evaluation in Bridge - Brian senior. The book is now 20 years old, but I certainly found it very helpful and it improved my bridge judgement. There are other books that I am sure others have found helpful.

[Cyberyeti]

SIR,Thanks a lot for your valued comments .I shall certainly give them a try. HOWEVER, I am a ,what many would call , BOOKWORM.I do not deviate from the logics put therein as it would amount to insulting those experts.And truthfully following those have always helped me in that partner can not blame me.for making any fancy bids .However,there is no harm in trying after prior agreements.To give a paradoxical example.many players in our local sessions open a hand freely holding QJx-QJx-QJx-QJxx as 1 Club.

They justify that by pointing out that they have 12 HCP which is 2HCP more than the arithmetical average of 10 HCP.

 

As you get more experienced, you learn to adjust what the cards say. The hand you quote K&R assesses as 7.4 points which I think is an underestimate, but no way is it worth anywhere close to 12.

 

The previous hand you gave was a slightly below average 12 count, but nothing like as sub par as this one.

[maartenxq]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa743haq62da7ca63]133|100[/hv]

 

4 ♠or 2 nt if this agreed as forcing with possible 4n card fit. Now 3 ♣relay. Now you must differentiate between 3 and 4 crd fit.

 

By no means splinter.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[pescetom]

Nobody appears to have directly asked the key question - What did Pd promise with her one spade bid?

"without special agreements" and in a Novice forum, it sounds reasonable to assume that partner promises 6 HCP.

 

 

My partnership will answer with any reasonable 5hcp. Thus, our 3 spade bid is much stronger than average. 3S says - Did you really have your 1S call? (about 6+) If so, bid 4.

I don't understand this. If you will answer 1S with 5hcp, then why do you consider "really having" 1S to be 6+? And why should partner raise 3S with just 1hcp more than minimum? That gives you very little space to invite.

[RD350LC]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa743haq62da7ca63]133|100[/hv]

 

You are the opening bidder imps no one vulnerable close match 10 boards to go 2/1 no special agreements 5533

1c p 1s p

 

There was a fairly lively discussion on how best to proceed when this hand hit the table as dummy:))) sooooo I decided it might be a good idea to hear from the best of the best on how to proceed:

If you have no special agreement, then I would not consider a splinter bid-not that this hand qualifies.

You do have a good 18 hcp, and would add 1 (at least) for having all 4 aces. The simplest bid would be 4♠, as you do have 4 of them, and a potentially useful ruffing value.

 

Some people would consider a 2NT (or 3NT) bid, as the hand is somewhat balanced. My preference is for 4♠, though.