IMprecision 1C-1H, 2S

[straube]

After 1C-1H, 2S where 1C is strong, 1H is 5-8 and any hand with 4+S and 2S is nf and support, I'm wondering how to continue. (btw, we actually get to 2S by a more circuitous route)

 

2S can be 4+S or 3145, 3154, 3415 or 3451

 

My first thought was...

 

2N-asks clarification

.....3C-31(54)

.....3D-3451

.....3H-3415

.....3S-4S, very minimum

 

and then responder passes or corrects

 

After 1C-1H, 2S not sure what 3C, 3D and 3H would mean.

 

Early favorite for 3C is 4333, willing to play in a 5-cd minor suit at the 3-level.

 

Any suggestions?

[PrecisionL]

In a somewhat similar system we play:

 

1♣ - 1♥ = 4+♠ and 0-9 hcp:

1

♠

= minimum with only 3-card support

1NT = 17-19 and 2-cd support

2

♣

= Beta (for Controls)

2

♦

= Natural, N.F.

2

♥

= Natural, N.F.

2

♠

= minimum with 4-cd support

[awm]

This will depend somewhat on the rest of your structure. I know that for Sam and me, the 1♥ bid is more like 5-11 (not 5-8) and we play 1♠ as a relay which is not necessarily GF and often includes hands with 3+♠. So the question to consider is why we would jump to 2♠ when we can relay with 1♠ and then make a non-forcing spade bid at next turn?

 

In our structure, 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♥+ show hands with both majors (at least 5/4). So the reason to bid 2♠ immediately instead of the 1♠ relay is that we don't want to be in game opposite a partner with nine cards in the majors. A related point is that we don't want to miss a 9-card heart fit by bidding 1♣-1♥-2♠-Pass when opener has 34(15) and responder has 45xx. The more general point is that 1♣-1♥-2♠ should not include opener hands with more hearts than spades. Our style is to raise on three pretty often though, so we might bid 2♠ with (for example) 3235 minimums rather than rebid 1NT (which can often be singleton spade, and over which we don't expect partner to transfer-and-pass into a mediocre five-card spade suit).

[straube]

Thanks. Well, we do similarly (why I mentioned a circuitous route) because 1C-1H, 2S is 5/5 minors (thought you did that as well?) but after 1C-1H, 1S-1N or 1C-1H, 1S-2C our 2S rebid is 4S bal or the 5431s I mentioned. Anyway, I was trying to simplify the problem (sorry I made it more complicated) but at the point of 2S opener has a minimum with 4S or various 3S(5m41s) and I'm trying to sort it out.

 

How do you sort yours out?

 

It's possible for example that responder has 4432 and opener has 3415.

[Kungsgeten]

To me it seems like a bit of a gamble to look for a better partscore at the 3-level, instead of passing. When you only have a 4-3 fit, the 3-card hand will have shortness somewhere - which is a plus.

 

I think your idea of the 2NT bid is fine. Responder can have a constructive hand with 4S, but in case we don't have 4-4 spades we can stop in a partscore (I think opener should bid 3NT or higher with 4S and extra values, even if mild). Responder could also have 4S and 4+H and constructive values (if I understand the system), and thus might be searching for a 4-4 or 5-3 heart fit? With an invite and 5S, responder would bid 3S?

 

Here's an idea:

 

Pass = Most hands not interested in game.

2NT = Asking bid. Constructive values, exploring game possibilities. Usually 4S, but could be 5S and 4+H interested in playing hearts instead of spades. Could also be 5S looking at playing game if opener has 4S or a fitting singleton.

3new = 4S and 6+ side-suit. Poor spade suit and strong side-suit, rather be playing in a 6-1 fit than a 4-3 one. Not forcing, but opener can bid game since he should be able to visualize responder's hand. Perhaps closest (non spade) bid could ask shortness.

3S = Invite with 5+S.

3NT = Gotta take a chance :)

[straube]

To me it seems like a bit of a gamble to look for a better partscore at the 3-level, instead of passing. When you only have a 4-3 fit, the 3-card hand will have shortness somewhere - which is a plus.

 

I think your idea of the 2NT bid is fine. Responder can have a constructive hand with 4S, but in case we don't have 4-4 spades we can stop in a partscore (I think opener should bid 3NT or higher with 4S and extra values, even if mild). Responder could also have 4S and 4+H and constructive values (if I understand the system), and thus might be searching for a 4-4 or 5-3 heart fit? With an invite and 5S, responder would bid 3S?

 

Here's an idea:

 

Pass = Most hands not interested in game.

2NT = Asking bid. Constructive values, exploring game possibilities. Usually 4S, but could be 5S and 4+H interested in playing hearts instead of spades. Could also be 5S looking at playing game if opener has 4S or a fitting singleton.

3new = 4S and 6+ side-suit. Poor spade suit and strong side-suit, rather be playing in a 6-1 fit than a 4-3 one. Not forcing, but opener can bid game since he should be able to visualize responder's hand. Perhaps closest (non spade) bid could ask shortness.

3S = Invite with 5+S.

3NT = Gotta take a chance :)

 

Thanks. Our responder can't have 4S/5H, but can have 4S4H or 5+S/4+H. I like your thought of getting to a 6-1 minor suit fit (and it could be up to a 6-5 fit). You'd use the same replies I had for the 2N asking bid?

[Kungsgeten]

You'd use the same replies I had for the 2N asking bid?

 

Yes I think its nice that responder knows both about the singleton and if opener has four hearts. The 3C bid might sometime be awkward (let's say if responder has 44[32]). I think it depends on which hands responder bids 2NT with. If its only with 5+S, good 4S, or 4H then it may be better like this:

 

3m = Five card suit, short hearts.

3H = Four card suit, short minor.

3S = Four card support, very minimum.

3NT = Four card support, mild extras, not forcing?

4X = Four card support, at least mild extras, doesn't want to bid 3NT.

 

Now we still always find the heart fit, but responder has an easier decision with 44(32) over 3m. A downside is ofcourse the 3H bid when responder have 4S and not 4H. Another downside is if responder bids like this with 5S with the hope to find a fitting short suit, since the short minor isn't known.

 

 

If responder can't have longer hearts than spades, then perhaps responder could bid 3H as INV with 5S and 4H?

[straube]

If responder can't have longer hearts than spades, then perhaps responder could bid 3H as INV with 5S and 4H?

 

It's true that responder can't have 4S/5+H.

 

I'm thinking...

 

2N-asking with GI+

.....3C-3-4-5-1

.....3D-3-4-1-5

.....3H-3-1-(54)

.....3S-4S, minimum

 

after which responder places the contract. This solves the concern about the 4S/6m hand (which passes the expected stiff or places the contract in 4m or 5m if a 10+ fit is uncovered).

 

Also

 

3C-4+ clubs, invitational but nf

.....3D-3-4-5-1, nf

.....3H-3-4-1-5, f

3D-4+ diamonds, denies 4C, invitational but nf

.....3H-4H and forcing

3H-4-4-(32), invitational but nf

3S-5S

.....4H-3-4-(51)

 

This loses on some hands like 4-3-3-3 or 4-2-4-3 where we might have a 5-3 club fit. I'm kind of ok with that, partly because the tap would be in the long hand and partly because this is pretty simple to remember.