1C-2D 8-10 balanced

[jmc]

Partner and I have been playing regular transfer positives for a long time but he has recently decided he wants to try the Meckwelian 1C-2D as 8-10 balanced. We would then play 1H as a spade poositive, 1S as a heart positive, 1NT as a club positive, and 2C as a diamond positive.

 

I am wondering if any of you could share ideas or notes for this style, especially after the 1C-2D 8-10 positive. We currently use 1C-2NT as 12-14. Where should we load the 15+ balanced?

 

Any notable disadvantages in this style? Our old 1C-2D as a heart positive really makes it hard for the big club hand to show a minor suit as we begin at the 3 level and burn a lot space.

 

Any ideas or thoughts appreciated. I tried to find old threads but searching specifically for this was a challenge.

[spotlight7]

Partner and I have been playing regular transfer positives for a long time but he has recently decided he wants to try the Meckwelian 1C-2D as 8-10 balanced. We would then play 1H as a spade poositive, 1S as a heart positive, 1NT as a club positive, and 2C as a diamond positive.

 

I am wondering if any of you could share ideas or notes for this style, especially after the 1C-2D 8-10 positive. We currently use 1C-2NT as 12-14. Where should we load the 15+ balanced?

 

Any notable disadvantages in this style? Our old 1C-2D as a heart positive really makes it hard for the big club hand to show a minor suit as we begin at the 3 level and burn a lot space.

 

Any ideas or thoughts appreciated. I tried to find old threads but searching specifically for this was a challenge.

 

 

I use 2D* as @8-11.

 

Opener without a 4M tends to bid 2D*-3N. So a 2N rebid shows a 4M.

 

Meckwell tends to bid 2D*-2N/3N holding a stiff king.

 

I also use 1C-1H* is 12+NT or 5+ Ss. Opener

 

bids 1H*-1S with 5+Ss or bids 1N/2C/2D.

[straube]

2D denies a 5m332

 

2M shows 5M

 

Responder bids in steps his support for opener’s M

2

3

4

3(433)

4(333)

 

If 2 card support, natural bidding.

If 3or 4cd support, opener may relay for doubleton,

 

After 1C-2D,2N

 

3C-4H

3D-4S

3H-44(33)

3S-(32)44

3N-33(43)

 

After 3C or 3D opener may relay for more shape info or may agree the major at the 3L.

 

I think 1C-2D, 3H is 5/5 both minors and 1C-2D, 3S is the same with more serious interest.

 

1C-2D is helpful describing a minimum GF blah hand before the suction gets competitive. It also terribly preempted opener from describing his shape and violates the “balanced hand principle”

[akwoo]

We had 1C-2D as 8-10 or 14-15 balanced, 1C-2N as 11-13 or 16+ balanced. As I'm sure you know, the upper ranges are very rare.

 

After 1C-2D,

 

2M shows 5, with the usual artificial responses (as with 1C-1N-2M or 1C-2C-2M) - I suppose if you had specific singleton support showing responses, you might want to change this, but there is a question of how much memory load you want.

 

3m shows a single suited hand.

 

2N denies a 5 card major but is not necessarily balanced. After 2N:

 

1C-2D-2N-3S shows 4 hearts

1C-2D-2N-3H shows 4 spades

1C-2D-2N-3D shows 44 majors

1C-2D-2N-3C shows slam interest in a minor, after which opener bids:

 

3N denies slam interest opposite almost any 10 count.

3H/S shows a small singleton in the suit bid, at least 3 in each minor (and at least 8 in the minors combined, since no 5 card major)

3D shows slam interest opposite the right 9/10 count, on which responder bids 3H for clubs, 3S for diamonds, 3N for both.

[steve2005]

One idea in "Enhanced Precision" is to include the least likely positive, club positives in with 1D.

This system uses a lot of differentiation for unusual hands mixed into different bids. But I think simply using 1D for club positives is possible.

Now you have 1N for 12+ balanced or 11+ balanced; as you wish. So, you have enough room to get full shape and strength of responder if you want.

Also, means you can include 2N as a 4441 bid.

[Kungsgeten]

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but a popular response structure in Sweden is this:

 

1H = No 5M, no 6m, not 5-5 minors.

1S = 5+H

1NT = 5+S

2C = 6+D

2D = 6+C

2NT = 5-5 minors

 

This 1H response gives more space for opener to describe his hand. I've also seen these response moved up one step, with 1H being any super-positive (like 12+ or similar) which limits the other responses.

[straube]

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but a popular response structure in Sweden is this:

 

1H = No 5M, no 6m, not 5-5 minors.

1S = 5+H

1NT = 5+S

2C = 6+D

2D = 6+C

2NT = 5-5 minors

 

This 1H response gives more space for opener to describe his hand. I've also seen these response moved up one step, with 1H being any super-positive (like 12+ or similar) which limits the other responses.

 

That's a really practical response structure for those who want interactive (non-relay) bidding while giving thought to space preservation. I've mulled something similar but it would be nice if the continuations could become as natural as possible.

 

After 1C-1S, for example, you might want something like

.....1N-non-fitting

.....2C-5 spades

.....2D-6 diamonds

.....2H-fit

.....2S-6 clubs

 

Yuck. What are their follow ups? What do they use 1C-2M for?

[Kungsgeten]

What are their follow ups? What do they use 1C-2M for?

I don't know it by heart, but my guess is that its pretty natural over the transfer responses. Over 1C-1H I think that opener bids 1S with any five card major, and also with 4441 pattern (but I might be wrong). 1NT is semi-natural, 2m too, and perhaps 2M shows a 6+ one-suiter?

 

I believe this structure is from the Carrot Club system by Tjolpe Flodqvist and Anders Morath. I think there's English write-ups available online. There's several versions of Carrot Club though, and only the early ones used a strong club (later they played Swedish Club instead).

 

Edit:

 

Couldn't find the English write-up, but here's some details from a book I have.

 

1C--

1D = Weak.

1H = No 5M, no 6m, not 5-5 minors.

1S = 5+H. Natural continuation (2C could be 4441 with short major). Seems like they only raise directly with 4-card support.

1NT = 5+S. Like 1S.

2m = 6+m or 5-5 minors

2M = Weak, 0-4 hcp.

2NT = Solid 6+ suit.

3X = 6-7 hcp, KQJxxxx. NF.

4m = South-African Transfer to a major with KQJxxxx and 6-7 hcp.

 

1C-1H;

1S = a) Precisely 5M. b) Any 4441. c) 23-24 NT (they opened 21-22 NT with a multi).

...1NT = Natural.

......2C = Any 4441, minimum. Relay asks short suit.

......2D = Any 4441, 20+. Relay asks short suit.

......2M = 5M. Responder only raises with 4 card support, otherwise bids something else (natural) first (3m shows extra strength). Jumping to 3NT shows 11-14 with 4 card support, while 3M is weaker (8-11) or stronger (14+).

......2NT = 23-24.

...2m = Natural, five card suit (seems like they could choose between 1NT and 2m with 5m332). Opener's 2M is natural, with continuations like above (but Qxx is enough to support).

...2M = Short suit, 4441 or 5m440.

...2NT = Exactly 4-4-0-5.

...3m = Short suit, 4441.

...3H = Exactly 4-4-5-0.

1NT = 18-20 (probably 17-19 in more modern Precision).

...2C = Some kind of Puppet Stayman.

...2D = Stayman.

...Higher = Three-suited.

2m = Natural, 5+ suit.

2M = Natural, 6+ suit.

2NT = 25+ NT.

3X = Natural suit with at most one loser. Sets suit and asks for cue-bidding.

 

Now I don't think all who play the response structure (or modified variants of it) play like this; I only translated from the (old) book I have. Morotsklövern (1978) by Sven-Olov "Tjolpe" Flodqvist.

[PrecisionL]

Last year I played a version of Meckwell Lite with a friend of Eric and we played:

1

♣

- 2

♥

= Balanced and 14+ hcp

1

♣

- 2

♠

= Any 5-5 hand, 8+ hcp

In two other partnerships I changed that design to:

1

♣

- 2

♥

=

Any 5-5 hand, 8+ hcp. The 6 distributions can be shown 2NT > 3NT

1

♣

- 2

♠

= Any 4441 hand, 8+ hcp. BId the singleton or one under, both have merit.

1♣ - 2♦ as balanced and 8-10(11) is a favorite of Eric Rodwell. 12+ can go elsewhere (even in 1♥ or 1♠).

 

I have been playing 1♣ - 1NT as majors, 5-4 or better for several years.

 

Finally, 1♣ - 2♣ as one or both minors.

[straube]

 

Couldn't find the English write-up, but here's some details from a book I have.

 

 

Thank you

[Trick13]

1C - 2D ...

2M/3m looks for 3-card support. Step 1 = no support Step 2 = support with 0-2 controls, Step 3 = support with 3 controls etc

2NT asks for 4-card suits. Responder bids 1-under their lowest 4-card suit, 3NT = both minors.

 

1C - 1S is positive with clubs or balanced 11-13 ...

Opener can bid 2C to ask which. Step 1, 2D is 11-13 after which bids are as after 1C - 2D. Step 2 is clubs with 0-2 controls, Step 3 clubs with 3 controls etc.

[dokoko]

1C - 1S is positive with clubs or balanced 11-13 ...

Opener can bid 2C to ask which. Step 1, 2D is 11-13 after which bids are as after 1C - 2D. Step 2 is clubs with 0-2 controls, Step 3 clubs with 3 controls etc.

Why wouldn't opener ask with 1♣-1♠;1NT?

 

When 1♠ shows clubs or balanced, why not the minimum balanced range (up to whatever the follow-up structure can reasonably handle)?

[jmc]

Anyone know the reasoning for 1c-2d 8-10 as opposed to 8-11? Any practical differences?

 

I'm considering playing the 2D as 8-11 and keeping my 1c-2NT as 12-14. Then I'll insert the 15+ into the 1c-1H spades or 15+ response.

 

Alternatively, I could keep 2D as 8-10 and make 1c-2nt 11-13 with 1H as spades or 14+.

 

Thoughts? Concerned how much changing the range for 2NT will affect my slam auctions. The 2NT over 1c sometimes feels like a slam killer.

[straube]

As long as you are making 1C-1H a two-way bid, why not follow Meckwell?

 

1H-spades or 11-13 bal

2D-8-10 bal

2H-14+ bal

[jmc]

What do they use the 2s bid for?

 

As long as you are making 1C-1H a two-way bid, why not follow Meckwell?

 

1H-spades or 11-13 bal

2D-8-10 bal

2H-14+ bal

[straube]

What do they use the 2s bid for?

 

I don't know.

 

Funny but I know that 1C-3H is/was 4-4-0-5 and 8+ hcps.

 

My guess is that most of the 2S and higher bids are devoted to the 3-suited hands...so you could design your own relays for those. Like you could reverse engineer....perhaps 1C-3D showed 4-4-1-4 and then 1C-3S is 4-5-0-4 and 1C-3N is 5-4-0-4.

 

So perhaps

 

1C-2S is short spades and then...

.....2N-asks

..........3C-1-4-4-4

..........3D-0-4-4-5

..........3H-0-4-5-4

..........3S-0-5-4-4

 

and 1C-2N is short hearts and etc

 

and 1C-3C is short clubs and etc

[jmc]

I actually like playing 1c-2M as a 6-card major with 3-6 points. This takes pressure off the 1C-1D-whatever-2M bids by responder. I could be persuaded to play the 1c-2h,2s differently if it had a big advantage. Right now we put the 4441 hands into the 1c-3c,3d bids ala Precision Today.

 

I don't know.

 

Funny but I know that 1C-3H is/was 4-4-0-5 and 8+ hcps.

 

My guess is that most of the 2S and higher bids are devoted to the 3-suited hands...so you could design your own relays for those. Like you could reverse engineer....perhaps 1C-3D showed 4-4-1-4 and then 1C-3S is 4-5-0-4 and 1C-3N is 5-4-0-4.

 

So perhaps

 

1C-2S is short spades and then...

.....2N-asks

..........3C-1-4-4-4

..........3D-0-4-4-5

..........3H-0-4-5-4

..........3S-0-5-4-4

 

and 1C-2N is short hearts and etc

 

and 1C-3C is short clubs and etc

[shevek]

Your probably don't want relay. If you do, this is what we might do:

 

Assume all 4333, 4432, 5m332 bid 2D if 8-11.

Based on symmetric, showing suits & shortages top down.

 

1C : 2D (8-11 balanced, no 5cM)

2H = GFR

 

2S = no major

2N = S + m

3C = H + m

3D = 4-4-2-3

3H = 4-4-3-2

3S = 4-3-3-3

3N = 3-4-3-3

 

2D : 2H ?

2N : 3C ?

 

3D = S + D (4-2-4-3 / 4-3-4-2)

3H = 4-2-3-4

3S = 4-3-2-4

 

2D : 2H ?

3C : 3D ?

 

3H = H + D (2-4-4-3 / 3-4-4-2 over the top but ok)

3S = 2-4-3-4

3N = 3-4-2-4

 

2D : 2H ?

2S : 2N ?

 

3C = 5 Ds

3D = 5 Cs

3H = 2-3-4-4

3S = 3-2-4-4

3N = 3-3-4-3 or 3-3-3-4 (don't split)

 

2D : 2H ?

2S : 2N ?

3C : 3D ?

 

3H = 2-3-5-3

3S = 3-2-5-3

3N = 3-3-5-2

 

2D : 2H ?

2S : 2N ?

3D : 3H ?

 

3S = 2-3-3-5

3N = 3-2-3-5

4C = 3-3-2-5 (ok with 3-3 majors)

 

We would play

1C : 2D

 

2S = natural

2N = non forcing !

3x = shortage