Sacrifice in Grand?

[pescetom]

MPs, NS vul.

You are dealer in E. S is an expert, N is unknown to you.

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s63haqjt84d85c983&d=e&v=n&b=7&a=2h(weak 6-card)2s3h(competitive)4n(unexplained)p5d(unexplained)p6s?]400|300[/hv]

 

North's methods seem a bit primitive, but she confidently bids to slam.

You don't ask the meaning of 5♦ to avoid accusations of UI or asking on behalf of partner.

Partner's 3♥ is just competitive and does not promise values.

Your call now over 6♠ ?

[kuhchung]

passsssssssssssssss

[smerriman]

How can there be any option but pass?

[manudude03]

7H deserves to be 1100 in a phantom.

[Tramticket]

There must be some reason for asking this question? But really??? Why can't partner have some defence? Why depart from the usual advice to leave things to partner after a pre-empt? It's not as if you have anything extra (extreme shape).

[helene_t]

Bonus points for a lead-misdirecting 7♣ just to make sure partner doesn't lead a heart in case they bid 7♠

 

A lightner dbl is also cute, will ask partner to lead a diamond for you to ruff.

[johnu]

Your call now over 6♠ ?

 

This could be a legitimate problem if you gave the West hand and asked whether a sacrifice was a possibility.

 

As it is, you have a ordinary weak 2 bid which you have already shown, and if there is no heart void, a defensive trick..

[ahydra]

At IMPs I would insta-pass, even if 6S is making you're not gaining much by sacking, compared to the risk that partner has a stray King or something and 6S goes off.

 

At MPs it's a bit closer. If you can trust opponents to have their bid AND the field to back you up, you might go for it. But it's not clear that either of those are the case, and partner is still in the picture. Pass is probably safest.

 

ahydra

[FelicityR]

Pass. If you were going to make any 'silly' bid - apologies for being slightly rude - 5♥ after Blackwood would be equally bad as 7♥ now but it stands a chance of disrupting the opponents if they haven't got DOP1 on their bidding card.

[helene_t]

At MPs it's a bit closer.

I think you need to leave it to partner. If you must sacrifice in direct seat after having preempted, then make the agreement that double means "I really want to bid 7 but I show this by doubling just in case you wanted to double 6♠ regardless".

 

This might be justified with something like

♠-

♥KQJT9x

♦QJT9

♣xxx

 

With the actual hand, you have no reason not to leave it to partner, though. If anything, with no singleton and with an ace you have less o/d than partner will hope for.

 

Another issue:

Playing with GIB where there is no such thing as partnership harmony, you can do anything. But playing with a human, you really have to pass here. Partner is likely to get annoyed if you don't respect their captainship.

[vladesch]

I always like to take an optomistic view about opposition contracts that have had to deal with my pre-empt.

That is, I like to make the assumption that my pre-empt has disrupted their bidding enough times to sit back and rely on them being in the wrong contract.

 

in this case, N/S have hardly reached their slam scientifically and it could well be wrong.

So just pass.

For all you know they might be making 7.

 

In any case I would consider it my partners decision since I have no more and no less than I have bid.

Partner might be quite happy defending it.

[bilalz]

This must be a trick question but I can't find one, except that maybe it was your partner that made the preempt and then sacrificed in the grand or it was indeed you who made the preempt and P was angry at you for not sacrificing in the direct seat and you want to make your partner look silly with a unanimous poll on bbo.

[msjennifer]

PASS.I have already described my hand and there is nothing more ,.I shall leave it to partner.

[steve2005]

Just open 7♥ next time.

I cant believe 7 is even a consideration.

[kontoleon]

Clear pass . 6s has 1430 points you have 6 tricks in H so down 7 was 1700 ( if parterre had K h or fitness work) so if you had one more sure trick ok I said yes and if opponent had void H bids 7s and made it is gg but here is 100% pass

 

In fact partner know your full hand 6 h with at least 2 out of 3 top (usually) so if he had ace and kH so he had change.to hit 7h So PASS

[RD350LC]

MPs, NS vul.

You are dealer in E. S is an expert, N is unknown to you.

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s63haqjt84d85c983&d=e&v=n&b=7&a=2h(weak 6-card)2s3h(competitive)4n(unexplained)p5d(unexplained)p6s?]400|300[/hv]

 

North's methods seem a bit primitive, but she confidently bids to slam.

You don't ask the meaning of 5♦ to avoid accusations of UI or asking on behalf of partner.

Partner's 3♥ is just competitive and does not promise values.

Your call now over 6♠ ?

PASS!!!

There are two things I never do (and never is a strong word in bridge) and that is 1) Pass a forcing bid, and 2) repeat a pre-empt.

I have absolutely no reason to bid here. Partner is still there.

[rmnka447]

Pass. You have a flat 8 loser hand and there's no reasons to believe partner can cover very many of them. Where you might think even about sacking is if your hand is very

distributional and your likely to be down just a few tricks. Possibly something like

 

♠ X

♥ AQJ10xx

♦ xxxxx

♣ x

 

instead of your actual hand. But even then you want to be pretty confident 6 ♠ will make which you can't be on this auction.

[pescetom]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, and sorry if the poll result is so predictable. No trick question, I really did bid 7♥ and of course I regretted it even before the bidding card hit the table.

With such an undistributional hand already described in a pre-empt I would have normally passed the decision over to partner without question, but I didn't trust this partner and was irritated by the opponent and I bid on a silly impulse.

 

I raised the hand here anyway partly because I thought that discussion of such a situation would be instructive for I&A (people deserve some certainties) and partly because there is an interesting twist to the story: 7♥ doubled went down only 5, which was the official PAR for the hand.

 

Here is the full hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s63haqjt84d85c983&s=sj9742h53daq4cj52&w=skt5h962d62ckqt76&n=saq8hk7dkjt973ca4&d=e&v=n&b=7&a=2h(weak 6-card)2s3h(competitive)4n(unexplained)p5d(unexplained)p6s]400|300[/hv]

 

On closer inspection, 6♠ (also 6♦) only makes if played by North, which would have required fairly sophisticated bidding over a pre-empt (2♥ in our case but at many tables 2♦ Multicolor).

 

Out of 63 tables, it appears that at 10 tables NS went down 1 (presumably in slam) and only 3 made 5♠, nobody making 6♠. Making the PAR was thus a resounding bottom all the same B-)

[aawk]

Rule number one : never ever bid a weak hand twice (2♥ sold your hand) it's your partners job to decide where to go.

 

The exception on this rule could be holding a 6-5 pattern with no aces and partner gave a non forcing raise in your suit.

[mikeh]

South is not an expert. No expert would overcall 2S. It was idiotic. Not quite in the same league as 7H, but close

[RD350LC]

Rule number one : never ever bid a weak hand twice (2♥ sold your hand) it's your partners job to decide where to go.

 

The exception on this rule could be holding a 6-5 pattern with no aces and partner gave a non forcing raise in your suit.

I agree-to a point. With an extreme distributional hand (say 7-6, 7-5 or 6-6), I may make a second bit, but my first bid would usually not be a pre-emptive bid. Unless I have a very weak (hcp) hand, I tend to open hands like that at the 1 level.

 

In this case, I would not make another bid. You still have a partner-let him make the decision.

So I agree-do not repeat the pre-empt.

[pescetom]

South is not an expert. No expert would overcall 2S. It was idiotic. Not quite in the same league as 7H, but close

 

South is 2 (of 17) levels below Master in the ranking of the Italian Federation and has successfully competed at regional level for decades. Maybe not quite BBO Expert, but certainly more than Advanced. I too was surprised to see what he had overcalled with. I'm pretty sure that if I had opened 2D Multicolor (much more common around here) their bidding would have been more disciplined and effective.

[Tramticket]

Firstly, congratulations to Manudude03 for a spot-on prediction of the result:

7H deserves to be 1100 in a phantom.

 

Secondly MikeH is also correct:

South is not an expert. No expert would overcall 2S. It was idiotic.

 

As for North, your thoughts were:

North's methods seem a bit primitive, but she confidently bids to slam.

 

I don't blame North for looking for slam. If South had anything like a two-level overcall, then slam would be reasonable. I do think that she was naïve going to 6♠, knowing that West would be on lead to start-off with a heart through the king (East showed a six-card heart suit and west is likely to have three if raising based on level of fit, so there is a good chance that south holds a small doubleton heart). A diamond or no-trump contract played from her side would be a more realistic shot.

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s63haqjt84d85c983&s=sj9742h53daq4cj52&w=skt5h962d62ckqt76&n=saq8hk7dkjt973ca4&d=e&v=n&b=7&a=2h(weak 6-card)2s3h(competitive)4n(unexplained)p5d(unexplained)p6s]400|300[/hv]

 

6♠ goes down trivially on a heart lead and declarer does well to avoid going down two. If East switches to a club at trick 3, declarer needs to win with the ace, cross to hand in diamonds to run the ♠J and when this is covered, cross back to hand a second time in diamonds (hoping for a 2-2 diamond break, to avoid a ruff) and finesse in trumps a second time. Declarer may prefer to play the ♠Q on the second round, hoping to drop the 10 rather than risk crossing back to hand and will now be three down!

 

Alternatively, east might play a third round of hearts at trick three, offering the ruff and discard. Declarer can't afford to ruff in dummy and must ruff in hand, then play the spades for no losers as above.

 

Maybe you bid 7♥ because you expected partner to lead a club? It might not be silly from West's point of view to lead ♣K, reasoning that there won't be two heart tricks if North/South have bid logically. If South is up to winning the ace, crossing twice in diamonds, to take two finesses to play the spade suit for no losers then maybe South is more of an expert than we imagine. Or more lucky! :)

[pescetom]

I don't blame North for looking for slam. If South had anything like a two-level overcall, then slam would be reasonable. I do think that she was naïve going to 6♠, knowing that West would be on lead to start-off with a heart through the king (East showed a six-card heart suit and west is likely to have three if raising based on level of fit, so there is a good chance that south holds a small doubleton heart). A diamond or no-trump contract played from her side would be a more realistic shot.

I agree, North would be crazy not to look for slam over 2♠. But if she had initiated control-bidding rather than asking Aces she would have known for sure that South lacks control of hearts. Not that it was sensible to assume otherwise anyway.

 

6♠ goes down trivially on a heart lead and declarer does well to avoid going down two. If East switches to a club at trick 3, declarer needs to win with the ace, cross to hand in diamonds to run the ♠J and when this is covered, cross back to hand a second time in diamonds (hoping for a 2-2 diamond break, to avoid a ruff) and finesse in trumps a second time. Declarer may prefer to play the ♠Q on the second round, hoping to drop the 10 rather than risk crossing back to hand and will now be three down!

 

Alternatively, east might play a third round of hearts at trick three, offering the ruff and discard. Declarer can't afford to ruff in dummy and must ruff in hand, then play the spades for no losers as above.

 

Maybe you bid 7♥ because you expected partner to lead a club? It might not be silly from West's point of view to lead ♣K, reasoning that there won't be two heart tricks if North/South have bid logically. If South is up to winning the ace, crossing twice in diamonds, to take two finesses to play the spade suit for no losers then maybe South is more of an expert than we imagine. Or more lucky! :)

 

Yes I would expect this West to lead her clubs rather than hope for two heart tricks. And she would eat East alive if he offered the ruff and discard at round three :) Unfortunately she's not equally reliable in competitive bidding and I had lost some confidence in the preceding hands. I was also aware that she had no reason to be sure I held semi-solid hearts (our preempts non-vulnerable are not very disciplined and she didn't take the chance to interrogate), a long hot night and a silly hunch did the rest.

[mikeh]

I agree, North would be crazy not to look for slam over 2♠. But if she had initiated control-bidding rather than asking Aces she would have known for sure that South lacks control of hearts. Not that it was sensible to assume otherwise anyway.

 

 

 

Yes I would expect this West to lead her clubs rather than hope for two heart tricks. And she would eat East alive if he offered the ruff and discard at round three :) Unfortunately she's not equally reliable in competitive bidding and I had lost some confidence in the preceding hands. I was also aware that she had no reason to be sure I held semi-solid hearts (our preempts non-vulnerable are not very disciplined and she didn't take the chance to interrogate), a long hot night and a silly hunch did the rest.

 

There is no way that you can or should be guessing what your partner will lead against 6S, other than that you expect a heart lead, if for no other reason than that any other lead may allow our heart trick (assuming we have one) to go away.

 

As for North control bidding, that is impossible. The only way she can set spades as trump, other than by using keycard or bidding some number of spades, is by bidding 4H. Bidding 4C or 4D is natural (and it is unplayable to treat it otherwise....since North may hold a good hand, a good suit, and spade shortness).

 

No, if I were North, and assuming that I hadn't yet found out that I was playing with a very weak player and probably even then, I'd bid 6N to protect the heart King. I'd 'know' that I have 6 spade tricks (only a very very weak player overcalls on a marginal hand with a marginal short suit, as in KJxxx...btw, this wasn't a marginal overcall, it was an abomination) and I'd definitely expect at least the diamond Ace, so at worst I'm on the diamond suit coming home and many times I'll be claiming on the lead...to the point that I rate to take 13 tricks if they don't cash the heart Ace. A reasonable overcall would look something like KJxxxx xx AQx Kx. I'd excuse KJxxxx xx Ax KJx and now I need some luck/card-reading.

 

Of course, there will be hands on which 6S is cold and 6N fails: KJxxxx x Ax KJxx and the diamonds don't come home in notrump. Preempts work, even when one knows what one is doing.

 

As for the information that South enjoys a fairly high ranking, and has had 'success' at regionals for many years, I had to laugh.

 

It sounds as if South is closer to the highest Italian rank than I am to the highest ACBL rank. However, as any expert knows, masterpoints, or their equivalent, are to some degree attendance awards. Show me a non-sponsor client with 25,000 masterpoints and the odds are good that he or she is an expert. Some of the top clients are also undeniably expert...they are as good as or almost as good as their pros, but some sponsors are little more than advanced, if that (especially back a few years....these days most of the prominent sponsors do know how to play, and some are genuinely world-class).

 

Play lots of events for decades and one had better have lots of masterpoints!

 

My experience, and I have occasionally had discussions about this with other good players (who universally agree), is that one can usually tell within a couple of boards approximately how good a previously unknown opponent is. Sometimes it takes longer, and one qualification is that sometimes all I can tell is that my opp is at least as good as I am. The reason is that one identifies the ability of players not by brilliancies, which almost never arise, but by how they make mistakes. I am not worldclass (other than by BBO definition) so I make mistakes and sometimes don't recognize that I did so....if an opp makes the same mistake, it is invisible to me. So when I see an opp make 'no mistakes' I know that he is at least as good as me, but he may well be much better.

 

Most opps make a mistake of some kind within a board or two of starting to play. Many times the mistake appears trivial, and many times it has no adverse effect. Show me a player who religiously gives count (or indeed religiously gives signals) and I know he or she is not expert, even tho the signaling had no effect on that hand. Show me a player who bids 2S here, as South, and I know he's an idiot, in bridge terms (may be a genius otherwise and may be a wonderful human being!)

 

I've watched quite a few hands where non-expert friends have played on BBO, including lots of 'BBO experts' and my opinion is that the average 'advanced' player makes on average at least one mistake every hand, and often more. What is funny is that on many occasions one sees both sets of players making mistakes that offset each other, so that the result appears normal, and usually both sides then assume that they did well.

 

It isn't just frequency of errors that counts, of course. Otherwise I'd have to admit to being non-expert myself, since I make lots of errors. it is also the type of error that counts. Some things are just so basic, such as what one does with Jxxxx xx AQx Jxx after a weak 2H on one's right. Bidding is simply so bad that it cannot be reconciled with any claim to any real ability unless the player is stoned or drunk or everyone at the table is fooling around.