Bidding after partner doubles 1N

[nekthen]

Opps are playing 12-14 1N

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1ndp]133|100[/hv]

 

If pass is not alerted how do you bid? If I bid a suit am I rescuing or am I inviting game?

 

If pass is alerted as forcing, how does that change your answer?

[helene_t]

If pass is not forcing, you bid if you expect 1NT to make and you have a 5-card suit.

 

If pass is forcing, maybe a direct bid is to play while a delayed bid (after opener's redouble) is scrambling with typically two four-card suits. But this obviously has to be agreed.

 

In any case, no bids show values (other than 2NT or a cuebid in a suit shown by opps, and maybe jump bids)

[nekthen]

If pass is not forcing, you bid if you expect 1NT to make and you have a 5-card suit.

 

If pass is forcing, maybe a direct bid is to play while a delayed bid (after opener's redouble) is scrambling with typically two four-card suits. But this obviously has to be agreed.

 

In any case, no bids show values (other than 2NT or a cuebid in a suit shown by opps, and maybe jump bids)

 

This is more or less what I thought. The problem is that if declarer can scramble 5 or 6 tricks, he will outscore the people who have had their opps bid and make game, Maybe this is just a win for the weak NT but maybe we need a better bidding structure.

[helene_t]

If you can make 9 tricks when playing, you should also be able to make 9 tricks in defense to take 1NT three down. This is only bad at unfavourable vulnerability.

 

And sometimes you make 10 tricks and then defending is always better.

 

In any case, it is very difficult to bid game accurately after opps 1NT opening. So just take your money.

 

The exception is strong unbalanced hands where you can expect defending 1nt not to be profitable because p will often lead your short suit. In that case you can start with 2NT as an artifical force. Maybe someone here knows how to respond to it? Maybe transfers is a good idea as you want opener to be on lead.

 

It doesn't come up often, though. If you have a strong balanced hand, opener's partner usually has run out already.

[ahydra]

The exception is strong unbalanced hands where you can expect defending 1nt not to be profitable because p will often lead your short suit. In that case you can start with 2NT as an artifical force. Maybe someone here knows how to respond to it? Maybe transfers is a good idea as you want opener to be on lead.

 

I've been wondering about Stayman/transfers opposite the double right from the get go. Gives you some options for "running" with a weak hand, and allows for better constructive bidding. Advancer holding a GI/GF hand with a 5cM is a very common type, and you'd like to be able to find your 4M if doubler has a fit.

 

When opponents run, you can use forcing passes (GIB plays them to 2D).

 

Wish my team-mates had seen your advice about not defending with strong unbalanced hands. They cost us 8 IMPs by defending 2Cx-1 when doubler had an 18-count 4450 - cold for 6D or 6S, no less.

 

ahydra

[helene_t]

Transfers in response to the double is a very bad idea IMHO. It is very rare that you want to bid constructively, most constructive hands just pass the double.

 

Also, it is best to have opener on lead so transfers in response to a direct seat double would wrong-side the contract.

 

But above all, you really want to be able to play 2m when holding a yarb with a 5-card minor. Which happens a lot more frequently than the hands that need transfers for constructive bidding.

 

Also, Stayman doesn't make so much sense opposite a hand that isn't necesarilly balanced. Doubler would presumably have to bid 2♦ with 3316 which isn't great when responder holds a 3442 and passes the 2♦ answer. And a 2M response to Stayman could easily be a 5 or 6 card suit.

 

Once opps run out of 1NTx (as your teammates' opps ran to 2♣), it is difficult to decide when to defend doubled or undoubled, when to bid a partscore and when to bid game. But here, if you get the opportunity to pass 1NTx first and then get back in later, it is helpful that you actually show some values in doing so (a weak balanced hand would keep quiet, a weak unbalanced hand would have taken 1NTx out). Some pairs play that pass is now forcing to 2♥. I think it was Andy Robson who recommended that in English Bridge. I am not convinced, I prefer to play pass as nonforcing and double as t/o.

[mikeh]

One should know what double promised. Imo, having played various weak and very weak notrumps, including in world class events, the double should show a 15 count and be semi-balanced or balanced. Firstly when bot sides hold approximately the same combined values the side that gets to 1N first, assuming relatively balanced hands, usually prevails on the scoresheet. The only exception is when the declaring side is red AND the contract fials, which is a real parlay.

 

So one should only double when the odds are that your side has at least a slight majority of the cards, hence you need 15+, to outgun opener.

 

After that, in my partnerships we play that double creates a force on our side, the level varying amongst my partners but either through 2D or 2H. The argument against through 2H is that 2H doubled is game so this sometimes leaves a very weak advancing hand with no winning option should the opps reach 2H.

 

As for advancer's methods, I agree with helene. Advancer should pass with a decent 5 count. Yes that might offend my advice about wanting the majority of the hcp, but sometimes doubler has extras, and their making isn't usually a disaster. Note that my methods are designed for imps. I rarely play serious mps.

 

Bid naturally but remember that one can sometimes bid 2C and hope to get doubled and then redouble for takeout. This is not recommended when vulnerable since a wise opp may let you play there on your 4432🙂

[ahydra]

Transfers in response to the double is a very bad idea IMHO. It is very rare that you want to bid constructively, most constructive hands just pass the double.

 

Also, it is best to have opener on lead so transfers in response to a direct seat double would wrong-side the contract.

 

But above all, you really want to be able to play 2m when holding a yarb with a 5-card minor. Which happens a lot more frequently than the hands that need transfers for constructive bidding.

 

Also, Stayman doesn't make so much sense opposite a hand that isn't necesarilly balanced. Doubler would presumably have to bid 2♦ with 3316 which isn't great when responder holds a 3442 and passes the 2♦ answer. And a 2M response to Stayman could easily be a 5 or 6 card suit.

 

Once opps run out of 1NTx (as your teammates' opps ran to 2♣), it is difficult to decide when to defend doubled or undoubled, when to bid a partscore and when to bid game. But here, if you get the opportunity to pass 1NTx first and then get back in later, it is helpful that you actually show some values in doing so (a weak balanced hand would keep quiet, a weak unbalanced hand would have taken 1NTx out). Some pairs play that pass is now forcing to 2♥. I think it was Andy Robson who recommended that in English Bridge. I am not convinced, I prefer to play pass as nonforcing and double as t/o.

 

Some good points here. But I find that we end up missing 4M a lot after they run from 1NTx. Particularly at red vs white, it would help to have a way to bid constructively to a game without taking a leap of faith into what could be a 5-1 fit.

 

With your 3316 hand I would consider 3C over the "Stayman".

 

Pass as natural and double as t/o is simple and effective, but loses the ability to double for penalty when they scramble into 4-4/4-3 fits. It's probably not too much to get upset about though, as doubler can always convert. Would you play a second double by doubler as t/o as well?

 

To mikeh: are you saying you don't double with that hand my team-mates had (18-count 4450)? How would you bid this, assuming something like MultiLandy as a defence?

 

ahydra

[mikeh]

Some good points here. But I find that we end up missing 4M a lot after they run from 1NTx. Particularly at red vs white, it would help to have a way to bid constructively to a game without taking a leap of faith into what could be a 5-1 fit.

 

With your 3316 hand I would consider 3C over the "Stayman".

 

Pass as natural and double as t/o is simple and effective, but loses the ability to double for penalty when they scramble into 4-4/4-3 fits. It's probably not too much to get upset about though, as doubler can always convert. Would you play a second double by doubler as t/o as well?

 

To mikeh: are you saying you don't double with that hand my team-mates had (18-count 4450)? How would you bid this, assuming something like MultiLandy as a defence?

 

ahydra

Depends on what it looks like. I might well double but of course the risk is they run to clubs, forcing on me, and I have to choose between a second double or a 3C call. I doubt I'd consider 2D. Note that the second double is takeout oriented but partner won't be expecting a void when he passes. My methods don't work very well with that shape but I'd probably overcall 2C for the majors and then bid again

[helene_t]

Would you play a second double by doubler as t/o as well?

Yes. Last week we had this auction:

 

(1NT)-x-(xx)-p

(2♣)-p-(2♥)-p

(p)-x-(all pass)

 

(xx meant as scrambling, asking opener to bid her lowest 4 card suit).

 

As advancer I had the inference that doubler probably had some hearts as she could otherwise have bid a 5-card suit over their 2♣. Not entirely safe as she might be 4045 but given my own club length it sounded unlikely. So I took the gamble of passing the second double with my 3424 5-count. We got 800 on a partscore deal in a team match. Partner had a 4243 17-count.

 

It is true that it is difficult to bid game after their weak NT opening. If they play pass as forcing, we could play that pass shows values instead of my suggestion that pass is ostensibly a scrambling hand with two four-card suits. That would make game exploration easier.

[kontoleon]

ok I am a normal player. With my parterre agree that X after 1ΝΤ is penalty so I don't care is pass is forcing or not. However if I had no points and 5 card suit I bid if i had really long 7+ I never bid and I hope to taken this long hand as penalty points