Spades as 4th suit

[BillHiggin]

Using 2/1, what do you feel are the most standard treatments for the ♠ bids in (unobstructed auctions):

1♣ 1♦; 1♥ 1♠

or

1♣ 1♦; 1♥ 2♠

 

(Yes, we have covered this before)

[Cyberyeti]

Regardless of system, I'd suggest that if 1♣-1♦-1♥ can still be a 44(32) weak no trump, then 1♠ is natural and 2♠ is 4th suit.

[helene_t]

IMHO 2S takes away too much bidding space, especially if opener has shown 2-7 clubs. Use 1S as fsf. If responder is concerned about losing the spades fit, holding 5-10 points with 4♠5♦ or such, they should respond 1S instead of 1♦.

[apollo1201]

Agree with Helen. 1S is 4SF, non-GF yet, 9+ if natural (minimum QJxx x KQTxx Jxx to have preferred 1D to 1S) or 11+ if artificial (you bid 1NT with for instance xxx Qx AJxxx Qxx).

I use 2S as a GF 2-suiter, 5+D, 4+S but not necessarily concentrated values.

When opener rebids 1H, he can still (the way I currently play) have 3 clubs, 4 spades, and up to 18 points. Follow-up sequences with opener being unbalanced 15-18 with 3S, or balanced 18-19, with or without S stopper, can be tricky though.

[pescetom]

IMHO 2S takes away too much bidding space, especially if opener has shown 2-7 clubs. Use 1S as fsf. If responder is concerned about losing the spades fit, holding 5-10 points with 4♠5♦ or such, they should respond 1S instead of 1♦.

 

If opener has shown 2-7 clubs (which fits nicely with 2/1) then I think it makes more sense to play 1♠ as natural F1 and (in absence of XYZ) 2♣ as natural F1 denying spades. There is no FSF because opener has not promised length in clubs. 2♠ retains it's normal system meaning.

[BillHiggin]

Regardless of system, I'd suggest that if 1♣-1♦-1♥ can still be a 44(32) weak no trump, then 1♠ is natural and 2♠ is 4th suit.

 

I appreciate and respect your suggestion, but the question is less about what the bids ought to be and more about what they are likely to be in a typical online informal game (i.e. you are partnering a non-regular partner that you do not believe to be incompetent and have had a typical online discussion of "2/1, hi enc ok?"). So, do you think that your suggestion is a reasonable expectation? (I am willing to accept that it might be).

[pescetom]

I appreciate and respect your suggestion, but the question is less about what the bids ought to be and more about what they are likely to be in a typical online informal game (i.e. you are partnering a non-regular partner that you do not believe to be incompetent and have had a typical online discussion of "2/1, hi enc ok?"). So, do you think that your suggestion is a reasonable expectation? (I am willing to accept that it might be).

 

You don't have much hope of bidding on the same wavelength unless the dialogue can be significantly longer - "2/1" can be almost anything and says little not only about things like minor openings and responses to 1♣ when holding diamonds and a major, but also about the usual pitfalls such as 1NT openings and responses, interferences, bidding over opponent's interferences, Ace requests, etc. etc.

If all you can manage is a cursory exchange or none at all (as in the free tournaments) then you have to trust the profile, of which the most useful and often only real clue is nationality. With a European player it would be fairly safe to assume that 1♠ is natural here and dangerous to assume anything about FSF, for instance.

[Cyberyeti]

I appreciate and respect your suggestion, but the question is less about what the bids ought to be and more about what they are likely to be in a typical online informal game (i.e. you are partnering a non-regular partner that you do not believe to be incompetent and have had a typical online discussion of "2/1, hi enc ok?"). So, do you think that your suggestion is a reasonable expectation? (I am willing to accept that it might be).

 

I have no clue, I don't play systems with a short club or a strong notrump, I also rebid 1N rather than 1M with balanced, but that's what I view as theoretically best.

[Stefan_O]

I have no clue, I don't play systems with a short club or a strong notrump, I also rebid 1N rather than 1M with balanced, but that's what I view as theoretically best.

 

You really don't need the 2S bid.

 

Bid 1S with both 4spades, or as 4SF.

Pd will bid 2S if he has 4spades.

 

You can then use 2S to show a good hand with 4+club support.

[Cyberyeti]

You really don't need the 2S bid.

 

Bid 1S with both 4spades, or as 4SF.

Pd will bid 2S if he has 4spades.

 

You can then use 2S to show a good hand with 4+club support.

 

You then need more strength for the 1♠ bid if you don't have spades. I'm used to it only being F1, not showing much in the way of extra values and allowing you to stop at the 2 level.