Responding to 4th Suit Forcing

[dsLawsd]

Each convention needs partnership understanding and 4th suit depends n that plus some logic.

I am not crazy about the 3 NT I chose, but I think with 5-4-2-2 I show a flat hand not yet interested in slam unless partner had in mind to support one of my suits or has an independent suit.

Otherwise, I would just show 3S to show a minimum. If partner doesn't have one of my suits he should have a diamond stopper. Not playing

2/1 in this case amplifies that 3 diamond bidder must have direction to risk wrong-siding NT. But I have been wrong before!

 

Good question sir.

[msjennifer]

When Partner bid 3D he was fully prepared for a 4C response from opener.Therfore my bid is 4C.Had the hand lacked one honor n clubs ,my bid would be 3S.

[Tramticket]

2♥ shows 5+ spades and 4+ hearts. So the problem is that West has nothing to add - other than the club support, but the question is if West wants to bypass 3NT.

 

The question is also whether West wants to show club support with only two cards. It may seem obvious that ♣AK is likely to be as useful as three-card support, but when west shows some club support she is also tending to show a diamond singleton (or void) - but west actually has a semi-balanced hand.

[Tramticket]

The responses are divided about whether or not there should be a default response (Ahydra and P_Marlowe suggest the 3♥ should be the default, others suggest that 3♠ is the default) or no default response, but attempt to make the most descriptive bid (nullve and dslawse think that the most descriptive bid is to emphasise the semi-balanced shape with 3NT, even without a stop, Helene_T and others go for showing the club fragment in support of partner, at the expense of going past 3NT and suggesting an unbalanced shape).

 

Partner and I have some discussions ahead!

 

East's hand:

♠ K74

♥ A

♦ AK73

♣ QT765

 

We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.

[Cyberyeti]

IMHO, considering West's POV is the wrong side. If east was concerned about bypassing 3NT, he (or she) should not have bid 3D. West's job at this point is to describe his hand, not guess as to east's intentions.

 

Wrong IMO

 

E could be looking at a situation where he wants to play 4♥ if opener has a 5th one, 3N otherwise, you don't bypass 3N lightly.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

learning in Bridge in Irland, I learned, that openers first bid was the default, but in some cases

using openers first suit, burns more than one step.

Even in the given seq., a 3H bid as default, allows responder to bid 3S, suggesting to play 4S in a

5-2 fit.

I also strongly believe, that having a bid, that says, I have told you every thing, nothing more to add.

is important.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: On reflection, showing 55 in the majors is more relevant than 64, so when opener has shown both

majors, going with spade as default bid, is certainly sensible, caters for different hands.

You could also weaken the certainty, what 3H / 3S showes, say you could bid 3S with a good 5 card suit,

selling it as a 6 carder, and bid 3H with a good 4 card suit ..., this may eliminate the need for a default

bid.

[P_Marlowe]

The responses are divided about whether or not there should be a default response (Ahydra and P_Marlowe suggest the 3♥ should be the default, others suggest that 3♠ is the default) or no default response, but attempt to make the most descriptive bid (nullve and dslawse think that the most descriptive bid is to emphasise the semi-balanced shape with 3NT, even without a stop, Helene_T and others go for showing the club fragment in support of partner, at the expense of going past 3NT and suggesting an unbalanced shape).

 

Partner and I have some discussions ahead!

 

East's hand:

♠ K74

♥ A

♦ AK73

♣ QT765

 

We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.

I do think the FSF bid was misguided, you have a fit, why not show it? And a jump to 3S, instead of the 3D,

should show SI?

Showing the fit simplifies life, partner will cue any club honor he has.

Of course you may end up in 6S, when 6S is down, and 6C makes.

nevertheless ... discussion about the meanings / follow ups of FSF

is certainly worthwhile.

[Cyberyeti]

I do think the FSF bid was misguided, you have a fit, why not show it? And a jump to 3S, instead of the 3D,

should show SI?

Showing the fit simplifies life, partner will cue any club honor he has.

Of course you may end up in 6S, when 6S is down, and 6C makes.

nevertheless ... discussion about the meanings / follow ups of FSF

is certainly worthwhile.

 

3♠ is nat NF in an Acol auction, 3 card support and an 11 count (where 2♠ could be a 9 count and 2).

 

4SF is fine but should be followed by 4♠ showing a hand too good to just bid 4♠.

[JanisW]

I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.

Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.

So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.

[JanisW]

I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.

Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.

So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.

[JanisW]

I mislike the 4SF bid, too. And I don't think East should be too ambitious about slam. HCP-wise it's slim anyway and the hand is at least a partial misfit with shortness in openers second suit and a likely shortage of opener in ♣ or ♦.

Unless opener has some nice feature(s) (6th ♠, no secondary ♥ honours, something useful in ♣ or top of his range) slam is likely to be poor.

So 3♠ followed by a sign-off it is, to show the fit and mild SI.

[JanisW]

Sorry for the multiple post.

[JanisW]

Did forget about Acol so 4SF followed by 4♠ it is, as cyberyeti said.

[P_Marlowe]

Did forget about Acol so 4SF followed by 4♠ it is, as cyberyeti said.

..., it is Acol, but what is the difference between 2S instead of a jump to 3S?

2S in the given seq., should show a inv. raise with 3 card support,

should it only be 2?

[Tramticket]

..., it is Acol, but what is the difference between 2S instead of a jump to 3S?

2S in the given seq., should show a inv. raise with 3 card support,

should it only be 2?

 

After 1♠, 2♣; 2♥:

- 2♠ preference (often false preference) - usually only 2 spades, occasionally 3 spades in a poor hand.

- 3♠ invitational with 3 spades. Around 10-11 HCP / 8 losers.

- 4♠ to play opposite a minimum opening. Approximately 12-15ish / 7 losers.

- 4th suit forcing then spades for stronger hands.

[FelicityR]

A 3♠ rebid seems the ideal solution, a default bid, having seen all the replies. Opener cannot have a 6 card ♠ suit, or if he/she does it's going to be poor quality as he rebid 2♥ not 2♠.

 

If the hand were 5-5 or 6-5 in the majors then 3♥ would be rebid. what is really transparent here is that with Acol and 4 card majors and its non-forcing 2 bids, this hand is extremely clumsy to bid. With 2/1 it would have been a run in the park.

[Cyberyeti]

After 1♠, 2♣; 2♥:

- 2♠ preference (often false preference) - usually only 2 spades, occasionally 3 spades in a poor hand.

- 3♠ invitational with 3 spades. Around 10-11 HCP / 8 losers.

- 4♠ to play opposite a minimum opening. Approximately 12-15ish / 7 losers.

- 4th suit forcing then spades for stronger hands.

 

I would add to this, what 4♠ shows depends on what wrinkles you play in your acol. In old style, the DGR would be what you do with 4 card support, nowadays most people play 2N as a raise so it shows this strength with 3.

[Tramticket]

Opener cannot have a 6 card ♠ suit, or if he/she does it's going to be poor quality as he rebid 2♥ not 2♠.

 

This raises another interesting piece of theory. With six spades and four hearts, I would tend to rebid 2♥ rather than 2♠ - unless the spades were particularly strong and the hearts particularly weak. Playing four-card majors, a 2♥ response tells partner about the fifth spade as well as the four-card heart suit. The only thing unstated is the 6th spade. Rebidding spades before hearts hides the four-card heart suit and whilst it will show a six-card suit in this sequence, there are other sequences where it might only promise a five-card suit (e.g. 1♠, 2♦; 2♠ might be just a five-card spade suit).

 

I agree that it is an awkward hand for Acol!

[msjennifer]

Personally,I don't know any thing at all about ACOL.But If the sequence 1S-2C-2H could be 4/4 in the majors in ACOL then my bid shall be an easy 3S over 3D as the 3D bid may be to find out if opener has 5carder spade suit or not.There is no other bid to find that out.. as 2NT iwill be a passable bid. It is also my personal opinion that playing a 5 card major as in Precision if partner bid 2H then My rebid will be 4S over partners any bid over 3D .I am not too excited to visualise a slam holding only the Queen in the club suit in the given hand .I like the approach and further developments of the hand as suggested by other colleagues.

[marklaf]

Partner should know that a 3 diamond bid endplays me--I think 4 clubs is automatic--if partner rebids 4 spades I will pass---I would jump to 5 clubs with 5413 distribution.

[Lovera]

The responses are divided about whether or not there should be a default response (Ahydra and P_Marlowe suggest the 3♥ should be the default, others suggest that 3♠ is the default) or no default response, but attempt to make the most descriptive bid (nullve and dslawse think that the most descriptive bid is to emphasise the semi-balanced shape with 3NT, even without a stop, Helene_T and others go for showing the club fragment in support of partner, at the expense of going past 3NT and suggesting an unbalanced shape).

 

Partner and I have some discussions ahead!

 

East's hand:

♠ K74

♥ A

♦ AK73

♣ QT765

 

We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.

Although this hand is more for revere answer by E (descriptive also for points - almost 14 - and shape - with contiguos suits the first is longer) than for FSF where you can have on diamond suit fewer cards.

[Lovera]

Sorry for the multiple post.

But you can use "Delete" function on the left of "Edit" eliminating (also this one where i've replied) the multiple posts.

[Lovera]

 

 

Partner and I have some discussions ahead!

 

East's hand:

♠ K74

♥ A

♦ AK73

♣ QT765

 

We finished in the wrong slam (6♣) - East diagnosed the "double fit" and drove to slam - picking the wrong one.

When you indicated this hand as FSF you know that probably can not have the 3NT answer (except if W has QJx) because partner not have to lie about stopper, than you try to have informations about ♠/♣ suits (not being interested in ♥). Instead if this hand is bidded as reverse there is not that limitation (and for this one raises an interesting point of bidding).