Illegal psyche

[Xiaolongnu]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk762ha3dk432ck63&w=s53hqjt9dqj65ca87&n=sa84h654da987cqt2&e=sqjt9hk872dtcj954&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp2dp2hppdr3d3h4ddppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Table result: 4!dX-3 NS -500.

 

After play ends, NS called the Director and said opponents psyched illegally. The TD (myself) explicitly clarified with the RA that local regulations forbid this type of psyche, take it as there was an infraction. Please advise thanks.

[sfi]

Which call is in question and what are the relevant E-W agreements? Did you confirm that whatever action taken was deliberate rather than a mistake (a psyche is by definition a deliberate misdescription)?

 

And what does the regulation say? Psyches in general are legal, and the regulations cannot supersede the laws.

[sanst]

Which call is in question and what are the relevant E-W agreements? Did you confirm that whatever action taken was deliberate rather than a mistake (a psyche is by definition a deliberate misdescription)?

 

And what does the regulation say? Psyches in general are legal, and the regulations cannot supersede the laws.

The 2♦ is probably illegal if it’s multi, promising a 6-card major. The call is protected by the system because it’s forcing. But it would have been nice if the OP had been clearer about the call, the agreements and the local regulations.

[pescetom]

If their agreement is that a 2D opening shows both majors with less than opening strength then surely there is no psyche. If it shows diamonds or a 6-card major then there is not only a psyche but it looks as if it was fielded. Unless I'm missing something it's hard to imagine any mistake here.

[Cyberyeti]

What did the 2♦ show ?

 

What did E say about it ?

[hrothgar]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk762ha3dk432ck63&w=s53hqjt9dqj65ca87&n=sa84h654da987cqt2&e=sqjt9hk872dtcj954&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp2dp2hppdr3d3h4ddppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Table result: 4!dX-3 NS -500.

 

After play ends, NS called the Director and said opponents psyched illegally. The TD (myself) explicitly clarified with the RA that local regulations forbid this type of psyche, take it as there was an infraction. Please advise thanks.

 

This auction makes absolutely no sense as given.

 

As other people suggest, my best guess is that the 2♦ opening is a convention bid, showing both majors (Looks to be Ekrens or some such)

If this is the case, then this has nothing to do with psyches, but rather whether this conventional opening is licensed for this event.

 

Step 1: Talk to E/W and determine what their actual agreement is wrt the 2♦ opening.

 

Step 2A: If their agreement is Ekrens or some such, check whether this is licenses

 

Step 2B: If their agreement is something different, find out what it was and see whether this is an artificial call

 

Please note: Even if E/W did commit some kind of infraction, I don't think that N/S deserve an adjusted score.

 

After the XX, bidding 4D looks suicidal. I think that this bid is so bad that it beaks the link between subsequent and consequent.

YMMV

[Vampyr]

And what does the regulation say? Psyches in general are legal, and the regulations cannot supersede the laws.

 

Yes indeed. But some RAs, notably the ACBL, prohibit psyching certain sorts of bids. Of course these restrictions are illegal, but what do they care.

 

If I recall correctly, psyches are prohibited in Italy at club level. The Italian Bridge Federation allows this, and yet retain membership of the EBL and WBF. Go figure.

[sfi]

Yes indeed. But some RAs, notably the ACBL, prohibit psyching certain sorts of bids. Of course these restrictions are illegal, but what do they care.

 

If I recall correctly, psyches are prohibited in Italy at club level. The Italian Bridge Federation allows this, and yet retain membership of the EBL and WBF. Go figure.

 

True. However, looking at the Singapore Contract Bridge Association site, I can't find any relevant regulations. The only thing I can find is a copy of the WBF policy on psyching from 2002, but that's in the same location as the 2007 laws. So I accept that it may not be the most current set of documents.

[Xiaolongnu]

OP here.

 

2D means 10-14 4441 distribution. They play Precision. Regulation says psyche of artificial opening calls are illegal. I tried to simplify all of this by saying start off by assuming there was an infraction, asking mainly to discuss what the adjustment should be, or whether there should be no adjustment as the self-inflicted damage is too severe. Also, a precise calculation backed by law references is wished for.

[pescetom]

If I recall correctly, psyches are prohibited in Italy at club level.

Correct, at club level a psyche even of a natural call entails an automatic "10% of top" penalty plus redress of any damage to opponents.

 

And psyches of artificial calls (as is in discussion here) are prohibited in all pairs events at any level, although I understand that this prohibition is within the legitimate powers of an RA.

[Cyberyeti]

Firstly was it a psyche as in was it deliberate ? did E say what happened ? (I had a case in the past where I didn't think I'd psyched, then was shown my hand and discovered I had a dose of 3 point queen disease, unfortunately I had 3 of them)

 

Secondly was it a psyche (a deliberate and gross misstatement ...) is it gross ? I evaluate that as an 8 count with the intermediates (K&R says 7.7), is a queen light gross ?

 

Thirdly has W fielded the psyche if it is one ? should he be inviting ? I don't think so but it's close.

 

Need to answer the first 3 questions before going on to more complicated considerations.

[hrothgar]

OP here.

 

2D means 10-14 4441 distribution. They play Precision. Regulation says psyche of artificial opening calls are illegal. I tried to simplify all of this by saying start off by assuming there was an infraction, asking mainly to discuss what the adjustment should be, or whether there should be no adjustment as the self-inflicted damage is too severe. Also, a precise calculation backed by law references is wished for.

 

Comment 1:

 

What is the partnerships AGREEMENT about 3rd seat 2♦ openings?

Even if the agreement is 10 - 14 in 1st / 2nd, does the same agreement hold true in 3rd/4th?

 

Comment 2:

 

In order to get a precise ruling based on references to the Laws we need to know what the Laws are in Singapore. Not sure how many folks here have any familiarity

 

Comment 3:

 

As I already suggested, I view the damage to the non offending side as self inflicted

[pescetom]

Firstly was it a psyche as in was it deliberate ? did E say what happened ? (I had a case in the past where I didn't think I'd psyched, then was shown my hand and discovered I had a dose of 3 point queen disease, unfortunately I had 3 of them)

 

Secondly was it a psyche (a deliberate and gross misstatement ...) is it gross ? I evaluate that as an 8 count with the intermediates (K&R says 7.7), is a queen light gross ?

 

Thirdly has W fielded the psyche if it is one ? should he be inviting ? I don't think so but it's close.

 

Need to answer the first 3 questions before going on to more complicated considerations.

 

Those all look pretty clear cut at least.

A precision 2♦ opening should have opening strength; East has 7 HCP, which is a gross deviation and can hardly be accidental.

West is not strong enough to make a GF 2NT enquiry so his 2♥ signoff bid seems legitimate (2♦ opener will usually have 4-card ♥).

Is there some way he could invite here? I think 3♥ would be just preemptive (LoTT).

[Vampyr]

Correct, at club level a psyche even of a natural call entails an automatic "10% of top" penalty plus redress of any damage to opponents.

 

And psyches of artificial calls (as is in discussion here) are prohibited in all pairs events at any level, although I understand that this prohibition is within the legitimate powers of an RA.

 

For the latter it is kind of legal; I may be wrong, but I think it comes under the umbrella of sponsoring organisations being allowed to “regulate” the use of artificial calls. I am pretty sure this is not the intention of the law so “legitimate” is not really the right way to describe it.

 

The former, of course, is not legal in the least. If I happened to psyche, I would appeal to the national authority and they would be forced to either rule in my favour or bar the club from being associated with the national body. Obviously any clubs which have this prohibition can not be permitted to operate under the aegis of the Italian Bridge Federation.

 

And I am sure that the same penalty applies to misbids. And pulling out the wrong bidding card. After all, how can you tell the difference? If the opponents are damaged, it is no different whether the “psyche” is deliberate or accidental. This must be very hard on beginners.

[Cyberyeti]

Those all look pretty clear cut at least.

A precision 2♦ opening should have opening strength; East has 7 HCP, which is a gross deviation and can hardly be accidental.

West is not strong enough to make a GF 2NT enquiry so his 2♥ signoff bid seems legitimate (2♦ opener will usually have 4-card ♥).

Is there some way he could invite here? I think 3♥ would be just preemptive (LoTT).

 

3rd in semi psychic light opening bids seem to be tolerated here, a 5332 8 or 9 count is considered not a real psyche. As I said, I consider the E hand worth 8 rather than 7, so it's substandard but only by a Q.

 

Certainly in my version of precision 2N is not GF, here it seems to be precisely 4414 so will always have 4 hearts, either 2N has to be not GF or 3♥ needs to be invitational.

[blackshoe]

For the latter it is kind of legal; I may be wrong, but I think it comes under the umbrella of sponsoring organisations being allowed to “regulate” the use of artificial calls. I am pretty sure this is not the intention of the law so “legitimate” is not really the right way to describe it.

You're right about where the authority to prohibit psychs of artificial bids comes from (Law 40B). I am pretty sure it is the intention of the law. Maybe it shouldn't be, but...

 

The former, of course, is not legal in the least. If I happened to psyche, I would appeal to the national authority and they would be forced to either rule in my favour or bar the club from being associated with the national body. Obviously any clubs which have this prohibition can not be permitted to operate under the aegis of the Italian Bridge Federation.

I tend to agree in principle, and I can't say what FIGB might do, but the ACBLLC would probably refuse to hear the case, and ACBL management would say "clubs can do whatever they want". I don't like it, I think it's wrong in law and in principle, but it's what I would expect.

 

And I am sure that the same penalty applies to misbids. And pulling out the wrong bidding card. After all, how can you tell the difference? If the opponents are damaged, it is no different whether the “psyche” is deliberate or accidental. This must be very hard on beginners.

A player who psychs knows damn well that he has psyched. If I asked him if his deviation from system was deliberate, I would expect him to answer truthfully. If he doesn't, he might get away with it once or twice. "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action." -- Ian Fleming. If he does answer truthfully, then I would rule accordingly. Law 40B4 says "When a side is damaged by an opponent’s use of a special partnership understanding that does not comply with the regulations governing the tournament the score shall be adjusted. A side in breach of those regulations may be subject to a procedural penalty." A misbid is not a partnership understanding, special or otherwise, so I don't see it getting the same penalty as an illegal understanding. IOW, a psych is deliberate; there is no such thing as an "accidental" psych. I do know that the EBU used to treat misbids in much the same way as psychs, but I don't think they had a prohibition on psychs of artificial bids back then, and I know they no longer apply the "red, amber, green" business to misbids.

 

If you pull out the wrong bidding card, Law 25 applies.

[blackshoe]

Given OPs clarifying response upthread we have the following facts:

 

1. In a club game in Singapore, a player, East in the instant case, opened a Precision 2♦ in third seat on a 4=4=1=4 seven count.

2. The pair's agreement is that 2♦ shows 4=4=1=4 and 10-14 HCP.

3. The Regulating Authority prohibits psychs of artificial opening bids.

4. After the hand, an opponent called the director and alleged that East had perpetrated an illegal psych.

 

This is insufficient information on which to make a ruling. In particular, the TD should have asked East what he thought he was doing. Also, the opponent should not make such allegations. He should ask the TD if the opening bid was legal. The former is accusatory, the latter is not. Also, does the RA's regulation specify a rectification, or does it simply say "you can't do that"?

 

I wonder if the agreement includes other shapes, like (4-3)=1=5 and 4=4=0=5, but that doesn't matter to the ruling.

 

Not going to speculate. Need more info.

[Cyberyeti]

I thought EBU only treated misbids like psyches if they were fielded, I'm sure Gordon will tell me if I'm wrong.

[pran]

You're right about where the authority to prohibit psychs of artificial bids comes from (Law 40B). I am pretty sure it is the intention of the law. Maybe it shouldn't be, but...

[...]

may restrict the use of psychic artificial calls.

it doesn't say "disallow", so the way I understand this law is that the regulating authority may not disallow psyching of artificial calls in general, but must in case explicitly specify one or more such artificial calls and disallow psyching of these?

 

I see no other way of "restricting" that makes sense, given that the most important condition for a psyche is that it is unforeseen and unexpected. (Law 40C)

 

[edit]: except possibly that the regulating authority may disallow a specific partnership to use psyches of artificial calls?

[blackshoe]

I do not think that a RA can regulate the agreements of a specific partnership, and only that partnership.

 

Whether an RA can legally, by the letter of the law, prohibit psyching of artificial calls, might be subject to debate. Good luck getting any RA, particularly the ACBL, who does this to change their regulations.

[pescetom]

Certainly in my version of precision 2N is not GF, here it seems to be precisely 4414 so will always have 4 hearts, either 2N has to be not GF or 3♥ needs to be invitational.

 

I only played Precision briefly when I had an interested partner but as I recall 2N was unconditionally GF as it included 4m responses for (43)15 distributions too weak to open a Precision 2♣. If there are variants that play it as always 4414 or 4405 then I guess one could play either 2NT F1 or 3♥ as invitational (which would of course expose a psyche).

[FelicityR]

The psyche possibly might have been illegal but the 4♦ bid was totally illogical opposite a passed partner.

[Cyberyeti]

I only played Precision briefly when I had an interested partner but as I recall 2N was unconditionally GF as it included 4m responses for (43)15 distributions too weak to open a Precision 2♣. If there are variants that play it as always 4414 or 4405 then I guess one could play either 2NT F1 or 3♥ as invitational (which would of course expose a psyche).

 

You're playing a fairly odd set of responses, the minimum (43)15 responses are 3m in the scheme I know (although if you allow 4315s it needs to be GF because 4414/4405 are bid at the 4 level, we open 4414 1N so use a non standard set of rebids), but OP said it was specifically 4414 and in that case 3♣ with a minimum and you can pass or sign off in 3M or bid 3♦ with interest.

[sanst]

Yes indeed. But some RAs, notably the ACBL, prohibit psyching certain sorts of bids. Of course these restrictions are illegal, but what do they care.

 

If I recall correctly, psyches are prohibited in Italy at club level. The Italian Bridge Federation allows this, and yet retain membership of the EBL and WBF. Go figure.

WBF Systems Policy, 2.4 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments, d) Psychic bids protected by system or required by system. at WBF Championships BSC’s are restricted or prohibited, depending on the category. You’re claiming that such regulatins are illegal. But wouldn’t the WBF know that?

Besides, there is Law 40 B 2.(a): TheRegulatingAuthority: (i) is empowered without restriction to allow, disallow, or allow conditionally, any special partnership understanding.

[pescetom]

You're playing a fairly odd set of responses, the minimum (43)15 responses are 3m in the scheme I know (although if you allow 4315s it needs to be GF because 4414/4405 are bid at the 4 level, we open 4414 1N so use a non standard set of rebids), but OP said it was specifically 4414 and in that case 3♣ with a minimum and you can pass or sign off in 3M or bid 3♦ with interest.

 

We played 3♣ as signoff and 3♦ as a long/strong suit invitational to 3NT, which is natural and logical and was pretty standard at the time.

OP with all due respect looks imprecise in saying that it is 4441, I doubt they play that 2♦ can only be 4-4-1-4 or be other 4441 distributions.