Awkward hand to deal with

[Cyberyeti]

I think it very poor bridge to have a kokish sequence to, say, 3S and never have had responder say anything at all about size or shape. When I have a kokish sequence, responder has already promised game force responding values

 

Many people over here play that any sequence where opener doesn't rebid NT is GF, so this is a non issue, you're going to game anyway

[Stephen Tu]

Btw, I am a big beleiver in kokish, but feel it works best in the context of 2H negative.

Weird to me. Isn't the main reason Kokish was developed to give a shapely bust responder opposite the big balanced hand ability to explore for suit fit at 3 level? Now you can't do it after 2c-2H?

 

For those who play cheaper minor second negative, and thus respond 2D with a wide range of hands, including very weak ones, when do you slow down after opener rebids 2H?

For me, good positive hands have been eliminated by failure to bid 2c-2h (artificial positive, no suit you want to show, slammish, 5+ 3/2/1 points A =3), and some good semi-positive heart raises are taken out by failure to break the relay (3c+ after 2c-2d-2h!-). So now, after 2c-2d-2h-2s, you can essentially only stop short of game with one suited hearts, if you do the switch with 3c= 1 suiter, then 3d 2nd neg. Or I suppose you can play natural rebids and 3H = I only have 9 tricks, you can pass with nothing. Over 2 suited bids, if responder just raises to game opener just doesn't assume much from failure to do something positive earlier.

 

(It's not like 2h double neg really allows you to stop short of game on 2 suited heart auctions either)

 

[nullve]

Btw, I am a big beleiver in kokish, but feel it works best in the context of 2H negative. For those who play cheaper minor second negative, and thus respond 2D with a wide range of hands, including very weak ones, when do you slow down after opener rebids 2H?

 

I think it very poor bridge to have a kokish sequence to, say, 3S and never have had responder say anything at all about size or shape. When I have a kokish sequence, responder has already promised game force responding values

If Opener has 4540 shape, then he's about 40 times as likely to have 22 hcp as 26 hcp. Similar results hold when Opener has other unbalanced unbalanced shapes, so I think it makes sense to pretend the 2♣ Opener is highly limited. But if Opener is highly limited, then there's little reason for Responder to limit his hand with either a negative 2♥ response or a second negative.

[mikeh]

If Opener has 4540 shape, then he's about 40 times as likely to have 22 hcp as 26 hcp. Similar results hold when Opener has other unbalanced unbalanced shapes, so I think it makes sense to pretend the 2♣ Opener is highly limited. But if Opener is highly limited, then there's little reason for Responder to limit his hand with either a negative 2♥ response or a second negative.

Hmmm.....I wonder how responder knows that opener is 4540 at the time he responds to 2C or, indeed, at any time thereafter? Does opener hold his cards in a special way? Or do we design our system so as to ensure the loss of double-digit swings whenever opener is both unbalanced and strong?

[mikeh]

Weird to me. Isn't the main reason Kokish was developed to give a shapely bust responder opposite the big balanced hand ability to explore for suit fit at 3 level? Now you can't do it after 2c-2H?

 

 

For me, good positive hands have been eliminated by failure to bid 2c-2h (artificial positive, no suit you want to show, slammish, 5+ 3/2/1 points A =3), and some good semi-positive heart raises are taken out by failure to break the relay (3c+ after 2c-2d-2h!-). So now, after 2c-2d-2h-2s, you can essentially only stop short of game with one suited hearts, if you do the switch with 3c= 1 suiter, then 3d 2nd neg. Or I suppose you can play natural rebids and 3H = I only have 9 tricks, you can pass with nothing. Over 2 suited bids, if responder just raises to game opener just doesn't assume much from failure to do something positive earlier.

 

(It's not like 2h double neg really allows you to stop short of game on 2 suited heart auctions either)

Hi Stephen

 

It is my understanding that the main reason for kokish was the desire to show different notrump ranges. The ability to show different heart hands was a happy side effect. Note that balanced hands are significantly more frequent

[nullve]

Hmmm.....I wonder how responder knows that opener is 4540 at the time he responds to 2C or, indeed, at any time thereafter? Does opener hold his cards in a special way? Or do we design our system so as to ensure the loss of double-digit swings whenever opener is both unbalanced and strong?

Sorry, I meant to say that the 2♣ openng can be treated as highly limited if unbalanced. So over 2♣-2♦, something like

 

2♣-2♦; ?:

 

2♥ = Kokish: "22-25, 5+ H, unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"

...2♠ = waiting

......2N = "20-22 BAL"

......3♣+ = "5+ H, unBAL, NAT"

...(...)

2♠ = "22-25, 5+ S, unBAL"

2N = "26+ BAL"

3♣ = "22-25, 5+ C, unBAL"

3♦+ = "22-25, 5+ D, unBAL".

 

Of course, the "22-25" range must be taken with a grain of salt, just like the "11-15" openng range in Precision, for example.

[Vampyr]

Many people over here play that any sequence where opener doesn't rebid NT is GF, so this is a non issue, you're going to game anyway

 

Yes. And when playing Kokish with a balanced 20-21 the 2♣ bid is not underused. The 22-24 2NT opening is though!

[mikeh]

Sorry, I meant to say that the 2♣ openng can be treated as highly limited if unbalanced. So over 2♣-2♦, something like

 

2♣-2♦; ?:

 

2♥ = Kokish: "22-25, 5+ H, unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"

...2♠ = waiting

......2N = "20-22 BAL"

......3♣+ = "5+ H, unBAL, NAT"

...(...)

2♠ = "22-25, 5+ S, unBAL"

2N = "26+ BAL"

3♣ = "22-25, 5+ C, unBAL"

3♦+ = "22-25, 5+ D, unBAL".

 

Of course, the "22-25" range must be taken with a grain of salt, just like the "11-15" openng range in Precision, for example.

 

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I like a notrump structure in my system that is built on narrow ranges.

 

Thus 1x then 1N is 11-13

 

1N 14-16

 

1x the 2N 17-19. Note that I play T-walsh and auctions that begin 1C 1red(transfer) 1N show 17-19, which allows for the 3 card range more efficiently than when we have to jump to 2N. We open 1C on 4=4=3=2 and on most 3=3=4=3 hands, so this sequence is fairly common

 

 

of course, this is easy to adapt to playing a 15-17 notrump opening bid

 

2N is 20-21. Note that we upgrade more than we downgrade

 

2C then 2N 22-23

 

2C then, over 2D, 2H then 2N: 24-25

 

2C 2D 3N 26-7

 

2C kokish then 3N 28-29 and so on

 

I think that the narrower the range on notrump, the better defined one's auctions can be. Most good pairs have great methods over 1N opening, and a good 2-way nmf structure works wonders over 1N rebids. Many pairs struggle with 2N openings, including 2C then notrump, but it is possible to design methods that work well...the main issue being that the sequences for uncommon hands tend to get forgotten easily since the auction rarely arises.

 

I think the notion of opening 2C with 20-21 and 2N with 22-24 is weird. Opponents are far, far more likely to interfere over your 2C opening than your 2N (regardless of point range) opening...I have very, very rarely seen anyone bid over 2N, but many times over 2C. No matter how good your methods, I am sure that your unobstructed bidding is better than your contested bidding, so it makes sense to structure your methods to minimize interference. You will hold many more 20-21 openings than 22-24, so it makes sense to open 2N with the weaker hand.

[RD350LC]

In my opinion the bidding from North was quite ok. 3H from North would depend on partnership agreement but I would also bid 5D to show my 4 diamonds and a hand with no help in case opener is searching for slam. The 6d from south was a pure guess and risky but hardly the worst bid ever. I would pass 5D as partner knows about my strength and has chosen this bid (4d was available as any sort of slam try in diamonds).

I tend to agree completely. It is unlikely that I would go 6 ♦, but I have seen worse.

[smerriman]

A 1♥ opening runs a small risk that you will be left to play the this contract. Holding a 21-point hand, there are 19 points available and if partner doesn't have the values to respond there is a good chance that an opponent will keep the auction alive, making a 1♥ opening relatively safe.

Anyone know the stats on this? I would agree if you were opening 1 of a minor - if partner can't respond, it's almost guaranteed someone will be able to overcall in a major.

 

Assume partner can't respond. Holding 4 spades yourself, it's unlikely anyone will be overcalling a spade, and you'd expect each opponent to have about 8-10 points. Unless I'm missing something, it seems you'll be passed out every time unless 4th seat manages to have good enough clubs and points to balance 2♣. Is that really a good chance / a small risk?

[nullve]

I think the notion of opening 2C with 20-21 and 2N with 22-24 is weird. Opponents are far, far more likely to interfere over your 2C opening than your 2N (regardless of point range) opening...I have very, very rarely seen anyone bid over 2N, but many times over 2C. No matter how good your methods, I am sure that your unobstructed bidding is better than your contested bidding, so it makes sense to structure your methods to minimize interference. You will hold many more 20-21 openings than 22-24, so it makes sense to open 2N with the weaker hand.

There's more space to handle 20-21 BAL after

 

2♣(20-21 BAL or GF)-(2♦/♥/♠)

 

than after

 

2N(20-21 BAL),

 

so it's not obvious to me that opening 2N would work better in this case.

 

For example, over 2♣-(2♥) one could play

 

P = NF (Opener may pass with 20-21 BAL and 3+ H)

X = takeout (also on some GF hands with 4+ S)

2♠+ = Rubensohl-ish, e.g.:

2♠ = NF, 5+ S

3m-1 = F1, 5+ m

3♦ = GF, 4 S, unsuitable for X

3♥ = GF, 5+ S, unsuitable for X

(...)

 

and thus be able stop in 2♠ and 3m oppsosite 20-21 BAL, which is impossible after a 20-21 2N. The structure should work reasonably well also opposite a GF Opener.

[kuhchung]

I was playing a strong club, and at the time, we weren't opening 2N on 20-21 bal. I picked up 20, opened 1C, and opps promptly found a profitable 4S save over our 4H.

 

I now play 20-21 2N.