Opener's rebid after a preempt

[m1cha]

Pair tournament (club level), all red. You open 1♥ with this hand:

[hv=pc=n&s=sk6hakt52d8caq943&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h4spp]133|200[/hv]

 

LHO jumps to 4♠ and the bidding comes back to you.

 

(a) What is your call?

 

(b) Same hand, same bidding, different situation: After the 4♠ bid, your partner dives for a minute and then passes. RHO passes. What is your call now? Does partner's hesitation make a difference and why?

[dokoko]

Without UI I bid 5♣.

 

With UI I pass, fearing that if I bid I keep my score only if I'm wrong. Pass seems to be a LA.

[FelicityR]

Your ♠Kx isn't working under the pre-empter, but could produce a trick if they play in 4♠ if dummy doesn't have the ♦A. Nice hand but not quite worth the second bid.

[PhilG007]

Pair tournament (club level), all red. You open 1♥ with this hand:

[hv=pc=n&s=sk6hakt52d8caq943&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h4spp]133|200[/hv]

 

LHO jumps to 4♠ and the bidding comes back to you.

 

(a) What is your call?

 

(b) Same hand, same bidding, different situation: After the 4♠ bid, your partner dives for a minute and then passes. RHO passes. What is your call now? Does partner's hesitation make a difference and why?

 

I pass and defend on both counts and hope to defeat the contract. The only place for heroes is the cemetery

[msjennifer]

4s bid must have been made with a STOP warning.Even otherwise partner has to take a few seconds to make bid or pass as per the laws which I know and which is ethical also as a quick as a flash pass means a hand not worth a raise or not worth a negative double even at 2level.Anyhow if he hesitates too long then I shall call the director ,if there is one, and explain to him the situation before making any bid.Since 4S is a preemptive bid,I ,being an aggressive bidder, shall bid 5c. not to be preempted out.Of course,I know that my guess may turn out totally wrong.

[ggwhiz]

I'm a 5♣ bidder. May be wrong but could be a good dive, make or be able to defend 5♠ once in a while making it a decent gamble.

 

With the "tank" it gets very tricky. A fast pass by north is the true infraction that gets ignored too often and on an auction like this a little extra time is no crime imo, especially if 4♠ hit the table at the speed of light. I would need to be at the table and have my explanation ready before bidding as well as an apology to the opponents should I be ruled against.

[DozyDom]

4s bid must have been made with a STOP warning.Even otherwise partner has to take a few seconds to make bid or pass as per the laws which I know and which is ethical also as a quick as a flash pass means a hand not worth a raise or not worth a negative double even at 2level.Anyhow if he hesitates too long then I shall call the director ,if there is one, and explain to him the situation before making any bid.Since 4S is a preemptive bid,I ,being an aggressive bidder, shall bid 5c. not to be preempted out.Of course,I know that my guess may turn out totally wrong.

The op says partner hesitated for an entire minute. The stop card is irrelevant. And calling the director before making your bid tells all your opponents that you have a very close call to make, even after having more than a minute to think about it.

 

I don't really understand your point about a flash pass - surely op would mention if it wasn't in tempo in the original situation.

[Tramticket]

I am taking the opening post "your partner dives for a minute and then passes" as suggesting that there was a clear and agreed(?) break in tempo - despite the skip-level bid.

 

I would never consider bidding 5♣ and 5♣ is not a logical alternative for me. I would considering doubling (at pairs) without the hesitation and I would also consider pass as a logical alternative. If you want to find out the logical alternatives, it is better to poll without mentioning the Unauthorised Information. I believe that partner's slow pass suggests taking some action, so I think that you should pass, rather than bidding or doubling, after partner's slow pass.

 

Moderators: please move this thread to the Laws & Ethics section.

[m1cha]

I am taking the opening post "your partner dives for a minute and then passes" as suggesting that there was a clear and agreed(?) break in tempo - despite the skip-level bid.

Yes. There was no way to disagree about that. :)

 

I would never consider bidding 5♣ and 5♣ is not a logical alternative for me. I would considering doubling (at pairs) without the hesitation and I would also consider pass as a logical alternative.

If the double is at least partly for takeout, I would consider a double if I had the red suits; because if partner bids clubs, I can correct to diamonds to show my hand. But with hearts and clubs I would be afraid that partner bids diamonds leaving me no good place to go.

 

I believe that partner's slow pass suggests taking some action, so I think that you should pass, rather than bidding or doubling, after partner's slow pass.

When I started learning bridge, I was told that after a partner's slow pass I should also pass unless I have a really good bid. But this is not what the TBR says nowadays. Today the TBR says I should not bid whatever may be suggested by partner's slow pass.

In this situation, arguably, if we are strong, I should bid because we will make a 5-level contract or even a slam. If we are weak, I should bid because the opps will make 4♠ and we have a good defense. If we are in between, it looks like no party may make their contracts so I should pass. Thus, partner's hesitation can mean that he has a mediocre hand and suggest that I should pass, and in consequence I may actually have to bid 5♣ in order to avoid using UI. Can someone follow me?

 

This is why I like msjennifer's suggestion to call the TD ahead of bidding.

 

Unfortunately (as one of many interesting facets of this hand) I was the TD myself, and the vice TD was my LHO who bid 4♠ :) . But there were others who could have done the job for us.

 

And calling the director before making your bid tells all your opponents that you have a very close call to make, even after having more than a minute to think about it.

I agree, but most likely after South's 5♣, North has an easy pass or bid without logical alternatives.

 

:

 

For those interested, I'm going to post the full hand tomorrow.

[msjennifer]

The op says partner hesitated for an entire minute. The stop card is irrelevant. And calling the director before making your bid tells all your opponents that you have a very close call to make, even after having more than a minute to think about it.

 

I don't really understand your point about a flash pass - surely op would mention if it wasn't in tempo in the original situation.

If one is an ethical player it is ones moral obligation to point out any infringement/infraction to the TD.It is then his decision to decide whatever correct action is as per the existingh laws and conduct rules.(Of course,this is the procedure which I have followed rather than someone blaming me for keeping quiet and accuse us of cheating, after the deal is over.I do not suggest that this be followed by others.It is just entirely my personal on the spot action)

[mikeh]

We are not permitted to choose amongst Logical Alternative actions any that was made relatively more attractive by the BIT than it would otherwise have appeared to be.

 

Ignore the BIT: whether one bids 5C or passes is a question of temperament and valuation. To me, pass is clear, but I don't think 5C is crazy...close maybe, but not stark raving mad.

 

With the BIT, however, 5C is no longer crazy...if I am permitted to take advantage (which I am NOT), then the BIT reverses my view. Yes, bidding could work out very badly when partner turns out to have been thinking about bidding his not-so-good 7 card diamond suit, but most of the time he was thinking of doing something much more successful, whether it be a card - showing double (I doubt any good players in the world play penalty doubles here), or raising hearts or, if available, bidding 4N as takeout (I use 4N over their 4M as takeout and over their 4m as keycard in opener's suit, but this is a partnership issue, and I don't pretend it is standard).

 

So the BIT doesn't guarantee that bidding 5C will work out, but it definitely increases the chances that it will. One therefore CANNOT bid 5C and must pass.

 

Under no circumstances would I bid 5C and call the TD, nor would I call the TD before bidding. I KNOW that I cannot bid. This is not a situation where I can argue that 'of course I would have bid 5C anyway'. Even if that statement were true, it is irrelevant.

 

Bear in mind that the BIT was not an infraction. Thankfully the game has not yet progressed to the point that one is penalized for thinking. However, equally thankfully the game has progressed to the point that, once partner has broken tempo, one is ethically and legally constrained in what one may do, as his partner. Partner did nothing wrong, in terms of the Law, by tanking...now it is our turn to avoid doing anything wrong in response.

[mr1303_2]

What mikeh said. I am strongly tempted by 5C without the hesitation but it's at best a 50:50 call, but after the hesitation, 5C is disallowed as the hesitation suggests that action is more likely to be successful, and especially given our spade holding, it suggests that partner was not thinking of making a penalty double.

[MrAce]

I would pass even without the UI. I have very good values to defend 4♠ and not enough to go positive at 5 level vs pd who passed. I do not even think it is that close decision but there are hands that bidding may work.

With UI it is an obvious pass.

[m1cha]

Thank you for all answers.

 

I agree of course that, if the BIT suggests to bid, I should pass. I am not completely convinced though that in this case the BIT suggests to bid. For example (as I mentioned eearlier), if my partner does NOT hesitate because he is weak, then probably they will make 4♠ and we should defend against it. But maybe I'm resulting. I guess I should also have passed just to keep things simple. Because convincing someone that a BIT suggests to pass needs some effort; while a BIT suggesting to bid is what almost everyone will believe by default.

 

Anyway, this is the full hand:

[hv=pc=n&s=sk6hakt52d8caq943&w=saqt7543hdt7ckt65&n=s82hq864da9543cj7&e=sj9hj973dkqj62c82&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1h4spp5cp5hppp]399|300[/hv]

Well, so I bid 5♣ which, in theory, is the better option for the opponents because both 5♥ and 4♠ are down at perfect defense. I know that this doesn't matter, but I find it quite funny. At the tables, nobody found the killing trump lead against the four declarers playing spades by West. One declarer misplayed, down 1 in 4♠. At 6 tables, 4♥ or 5♥ were played by South, two opps lead diamonds killing 5♥. All other opps (also in my case) lead ♠A after which 5♥ is easy (though someone misplayed this also).