Forced to Bid. Help!

[FelicityR]

This hand - the smaller cards have been 'guesstimated' - turned up at rubber bridge last week, though, in truth, whatever type of bridge you play, pairs or IMPs, is just a nightmare. Yes, being forced to bid with a bad hand. Or should I have passed? (Very, very reluctantly and hope partner can snaffle four tricks) I felt I was between a rock and a hard place. Or were we just unlucky?

 

As always I'll be interested how other players would have dealt with it, and thank you for your replies in advance.

 

The opponents were vulnerable, no other score in the rubber. I was East.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj987654hdqjt9c2&w=s2hak43dak743ckqt&n=sak3hqjt9d8caj983&e=sth87652d652c7654&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=3sdrpp4d4sppdr]399|300[/hv]

 

1. Was I wrong in passing North's redouble of 3♠? (West's double doesn't necessarily guarantee ♥s)

2. Was West wrong rebidding 4♦ where 3NT would, I assume, be interpreted as pick-a-suit? That's how I would have interpreted it

3. Did my partner get too involved non-vulnerable by doubling 4♠, looking for a cheap sacrifice (to keep us in the rubber) or to push the opponents to 5♠?

4. Now that partner has doubled 4♠ what would you bid now as East? Pass, 5♦ or 5♥?

 

Needless to say that after the dust had settled, my purse was a little bit lighter :(

[Cyberyeti]

I would have bid first time, if you have the agreement that 3N over the redouble is 2 places to play, that's the bid (partner bids 4♦ and you correct to 4♥, otherwise 4♥ immediately.

 

At this vul I remove playing duplicate (4N as above), unsure about rubber, probably not.

[pescetom]

1. I don't understand how West's double could not necessarily guarantee playability in ♥, unless he is very strong (which should not be your first hypothesis). Given your hand and vulnerability I would bid ♥ anyway rather than pass.

2. Depends upon what his double did mean.

3. Yes.

4. See 2.

[The_Badger]

In my opinion this is an easier hand to comment on seeing all four hands as opposed to just one or two. In the absence of specific partnership agreements - something rubber bridge rarely has - I feel that East is 'fixed' after the XX of 3♠. Bidding 4♥ would have been automatic without the XX. The last thing that East wants to do is encourage partner to bid on holding a near Yarborough, and bidding 4♥ would be seen as a positive move, I feel.

 

West can double 3♠ without genuine support for ♥s. What does he bid with 1♠3♥4♦5♣ shape over 3♠? At least after the XX, East can pass showing genuine disinterest, and then West can bid 3NT showing two places to play.

 

The bad bid in my opinion is 4♦ by West showing a hand that he hasn't got. After East passes the XX, West than bid 3NT (see above) and E/W arrive in 4♥.

 

After the XX of 4♠ I am unsure what the best bid for East is playing rubber. I would after West's bad bid of 4♦ probably bid...check my bank balance.

[Winstonm]

4H over the xx. If not then, with hearts and support for diamonds, I would bid after the last redouble.

[pescetom]

West can double 3♠ without genuine support for ♥s. What does he bid with 1♠3♥4♦5♣ shape over 3♠?

 

Surely in absence of specific partnership agreement the double is likely to represent mere opening strength with playability in the three remaining suits? At least that's how I was taught rubber bridge. Playability doesn't guarantee 4-card length. Your example is fine for such a double so long as the 3-card ♥ are honoured.

[mcphee]

Partner made a t/o double, you have a 5, card suit exactly where you want to play, what is the point of passing when you know where you want to play?

[rmnka447]

It's a tough hand for East. The problem is that if East bids 4 ♥, it might drive West to 5 of a minor opposite a near yarborough. If the auction were essentially the same but the preempt were in a minor (like if everyone's back suit holdings were switched), 3 ♥ would be a clear call. So I don't have a problem with pass initially over the redouble.

 

The biggest problem I have with this auction is the double of 4 ♠ by West. North's redouble was a business Redouble showing values and a ♠ fit. It essentially said that North thought 3 ♠ was makeable. When North carries on to 4 ♠, especially vulnerable, it's not entirely clear whether it is a call to make or not. But if you take the original redouble of 3 ♠ at face value, the double is likely to gain you only maybe a +200 vs a +100. West is looking at virtually half the points in the deck and should also realize that for the opponents to carry on, they must have distribution as well as values. So a double becomes much more risky.

 

Once North redoubles, I think East has to bid 5 ♦. The redouble says North thinks 4 ♠ is makeable and the risk of passing is just too great. 5 ♥ is too much of a shot in the dark to be bid.

 

If 3 NT is definitely understood to be 2 places to play, then I think that should be bid instead of 4 ♦.

[Stephen Tu]

1.I'm strongly against the notion that bidding 4H shows values. Why should it? If the xx is genuine, how often do you have slam? If you are stronger can't you jump or cue 4S? If 4h over a pass doesn't show squat I don't see why the xx should change things and encourage partner to bid on.

 

2. Partner should have 3+ hearts. With only 3 he should be somewhat sounder than with 4+, given that you should be straining to bid 4H over the double vs. a minor, because of the game bonus. Over a preempt, he should NOT be doubling with strong hands with one minor or both minors. Because he has a jump to 5m available to show a strong one suiter, and 4S/4NT to show two suiters.

 

3. I think pass over the redouble really ought to be to defend, to play. If you can't defend over an opponent's preempt doubled, you are basically handing RHO a get out of jail free card when he is looking at a void or whatever and anticipating a pass, now he can redouble and escape! With normal hand just pick a suit, you aren't any worse off than if RHO had passed the double then doubled you later, which is really what he ought to be doing with most hands that want to cream you (xx should be hands that request cooperation from opener for deciding between double & 4S). At favorable vulnerability you also have a tactic available of 3nt, then redoubling for rescue.

 

 

[helene_t]

After opponent's redouble at the 1-level

(1banana)-x-(xx)-?

 

standard methods are: pass shows no preference (scrambling). A bit in a suit doesn't show values, it just shows a clear preference. This will be a 5-card suit at the 2-level, or, if at the 1-level, the only 4-card suit you can bid at the 1-level. Jumps are weak but pass followed by a jump is strong.

After opponent's preempt it is different:

 

pass it to play. Any other bid is also to play, just as if the redouble had not been there. But you can agree to play 3NT as scrambling.

 

Another difference is, as Stephen says, that the double shows tolerance for all unbid suits, certainly unbid majors. You don't need to double preempt with random strong hands because a jump overcall would be strong.

 

So this hand is fairly easy. East just bids 4♥ initially.

[msjennifer]

I My answer to all the 3 first questions is YES.Not having bid 4H earlier,I shall bid 5H now. A bid which we make now, if you had say 1444 ,is 4NT asking the partner to chose the suit.With 5cards in any suit we bid that suit immediately over the xx.We would have bid 4H on the earlier round showing our intent to play there unless he had some unusual hand.By the way our 3Sx does not promise length in hearts.Our 4C over 3S bid guarantees four good hearts and is a more descriptive bid.I,however, admit that it is not all that easy after a 3Level preempt without previous discussion .

[kuhchung]

passing 3Sxx is to play, like Stephen Tu said. we're in an impossible situation now, so abstain

[dsLawsd]

4H not vul- you took out his TO Double not showing values.

 

Then, get partner to pay your damages as he should NOT double them but should pass and pray. You would bid more with values and his suits were not solid enough!

 

All the above just relates to playing for money.

 

EW was booked for a loss on this hand- pay out as little as possible and move on.

[LBengtsson]

With trash East passed two times. West should listen. Both 4♦ and X of 4♠ are trash bids. trash bids opposite trash = trash results.

[RD350LC]

I My answer to all the 3 first questions is YES.Not having bid 4H earlier,I shall bid 5H now. A bid which we make now, if you had say 1444 ,is 4NT asking the partner to chose the suit.With 5cards in any suit we bid that suit immediately over the xx.We would have bid 4H on the earlier round showing our intent to play there unless he had some unusual hand.By the way our 3Sx does not promise length in hearts.Our 4C over 3S bid guarantees four good hearts and is a more descriptive bid.I,however, admit that it is not all that easy after a 3Level preempt without previous discussion .

I agree completely. Once north has redoubled, a bid by east does not promise any points, but is simply an escape.

[TylerE]

With trash East passed two times. West should listen. Both 4♦ and X of 4♠ are trash bids. trash bids opposite trash = trash results.

 

Sorry, but lol. Just lol.

 

E pass of 3xx showed willingness to play there (e.g. not a bust). W has basically a game force opposite any kind of values. The way you show the E hand is to bid 4♥ over 3♠xx, period.

[Vampyr]

With trash East passed two times. West should listen. Both 4♦ and X of 4♠ are trash bids. trash bids opposite trash = trash results.

 

Yes, 4♦ is a very bad bid; partner has decided to defend, and you should respect that decision. However, the decision to defend was much worse!

[dokoko]

Just bid 4♥ when asked to bid your suit and leave the rest to partner.

 

Unless I have an agreement that 3NT by one partner or the other is scrambling, I would not risk it.

 

And unless I have an agreement that passing the redouble isn't to play I wouldn't risk it either. But obviously I thought I had such an agreement; so why complain when partner does what I meant to ask for and bids his longest suit?

 

100% blame to East.

 

BTW 5♥ is likely to get out for 500 unless North leads trumps in time (after ♠A followed by ♦8 North will eventually be endplayed to lead clubs). OTOH 5♦ will go for 1100. 4♠ makes 6.

[The_Badger]

Sorry, but lol. Just lol.

 

E pass of 3xx showed willingness to play there (e.g. not a bust). W has basically a game force opposite any kind of values. The way you show the E hand is to bid 4♥ over 3♠xx, period.

 

To me that's illogical. If North's XX is a business redouble, a willingness to play in 3♠XX, how can East's pass show a willingness to accept that as the final contract? Pass is the bid used when there are no other bids available. North's XX could be a bluff, a hand limited in points with good shape and good ♠ support. Remember the OP is playing rubber bridge as opposed to teams or pairs. Except if you have a specific arrangement with your partner - as said previously such agreements are unlikely at rubber bridge -that East's 4♥ bid could be made with nothing, I wonder how you would react with the West hand? That's the crux of the argument: 4♥ by East after the 3♠ redouble without knowing that it may have been bid with nothing, and I bet 99.99% of West's would bid on after the opponents push on to 4♠, especially non-vulnerable and a game against at rubber bridge.

 

As I said previously, this hand is a lot easier to evaluate seeing all four hands. Maybe it could have been presented as a bidding problem (with only one hand in view) from West's perspective instead, when partner does bid 4♥over 3♠XX.

[msjennifer]

since the 3S bid has forced us to bid any suit at 4 level I with my regular partner use modified LEBENSOHL over 3SX or 3SXX.We bid 3NT to announce a poor hand asking partner to bid 4C .If he does that then we pass with clubs or correct to D or H as per our holding.However with a stronger or distributional hand partner is at liberty to not bid 4C as requested and describe his hand and that action is GF..However this does not mean that others should follow this method unless with pre agreement.In the present hand we would have bid 3NT over 3Sxx to show poverty and then converted the forced 4C bid to 4H.An advantage of this proves useful if the 3S bidder continues with 4S as the 3NT bid has already warned partner of our poverty.

[msjennifer]

since the 3S bid has forced us to bid any suit at 4 level I with my regular partner use modified LEBENSOHL over 3SX or 3SXX.We bid 3NT to announce a poor hand asking partner to bid 4C .If he does that then we pass with clubs or correct to D or H as per our holding.However with a stronger or distributional hand partner is at liberty to not bid 4C as requested and describe his hand and that action is GF..However this does not mean that others should follow this method unless with pre agreement.In the present hand we would have bid 3NT over 3Sxx to show poverty and then converted the forced 4C bid to 4H.An advantage of this proves useful if the 3S bidder continues with 4S as the 3NT bid has already warned partner of our poverty.

[Stephen Tu]

To me that's illogical. If North's XX is a business redouble, a willingness to play in 3♠XX, how can East's pass show a willingness to accept that as the final contract?

Because North's xx might be a bluff to get out of trouble. Suppose North knows from prior experience that you interpret xx - pass as bid, i.e. you always pull redoubles. So now looking at a weak hand and a void spade, thinking he is about to go for a number at unfavorable, he can try xx and make your side run. Great! If you can't ever defend at high levels after a redouble, essentially you become exploitable.

 

Except if you have a specific arrangement with your partner - as said previously such agreements are unlikely at rubber bridge -that East's 4♥ bid could be made with nothing, I wonder how you would react with the West hand?

You seem to be sole person expecting that 4H over the redouble promises some values. It seems to me that the assumption by everyone is that it doesn't show anything, that it would take specific arrangement for partner to assume that it does show something.

 

Again, what is the utility in that, how often do you have a slam invite if the xx is genuine, and why are other methods of showing strength (cue bidding, jumping, taking further action if the opps go on to 4S) inadequate when the xx was a bluff?

 

 

That's the crux of the argument: 4♥ by East after the 3♠ redouble without knowing that it may have been bid with nothing, and I bet 99.99% of West's would bid on after the opponents push on to 4♠, especially non-vulnerable and a game against at rubber bridge.

East's bid really shouldn't show anything or push West to bid. Really North shouldn't have put the warning flags up with the redouble and just raised 4S to begin with. Then West kind of has to double again, since 4S can be anything, and partner can still have a moderate hand that makes 5 of something but not quite enough to bid it freely over 4S, or enough for a cheap sac, and there are good chances of setting when partner sits. Then North can spring the trap.

 

The bid over redouble is kind of a forced bid, if you don't want to defend. It just shows length in hearts. Forced bids don't show values. Just like no one assumes 1c-dbl-rdbl-1S shows any values.

[ggwhiz]

I have the agreement that bidding directly is weaker than passing which shows at least some defensive ambitions.

 

Very similar to my opening 1x - dbl - rdbl - p back to me. I bid with a shapely piece of cheese and pass with a normal opener.

 

At lower levels pass of a redouble is indeed to play and immediately having discussed that it went p - 1♦ and I doubled on said piece of cheese. It went rdbl - p back to me and I cut and ran. Eventually I let partner declare 3♦ plus 1 and he said "I'm betting you will never do that again" and was right.

[TylerE]

If North's XX is a business redouble, a willingness to play in 3♠XX, how can East's pass show a willingness to accept that as the final contract?

 

Well, any other call E makes removes the opportunity to play 3xx, so how else would one try to play there?

[nekthen]

since the 3S bid has forced us to bid any suit at 4 level I with my regular partner use modified LEBENSOHL over 3SX or 3SXX.We bid 3NT to announce a poor hand asking partner to bid 4C .If he does that then we pass with clubs or correct to D or H as per our holding.However with a stronger or distributional hand partner is at liberty to not bid 4C as requested and describe his hand and that action is GF..However this does not mean that others should follow this method unless with pre agreement.In the present hand we would have bid 3NT over 3Sxx to show poverty and then converted the forced 4C bid to 4H.An advantage of this proves useful if the 3S bidder continues with 4S as the 3NT bid has already warned partner of our poverty.

 

This is very different to lebensohl. You are giving up the ability to play 3N, which can easily be the last making game. The redouble, I have always thought to be pointless as you are giving opps an extra bid (pass), but clearly, you can sow confusion! Clearly the redoubler expects 3S to make, but that does not mean he has a power house. I think pass must have some positive meaning, 3N is to make and any other bid is weak.