Your bid, please

[Hilver]

Pairs/ all vulnerable

 

You hold:

♠ 6

♥ J 9 7

♦ Q 7 5 4

♣ K Q 10 9 3

 

The bidding:

2♦ - pass - 2♥ - pass

2♠ - pass - pass - 2NT

pass - ?

 

2♦ = Multi coloured = weak ♥ or ♠; semiforcing ♣ or ♦; NT 22-23 HP, balanced

2♥ = relay, less then 15 HCP

2♠ = 6-card ♠ and 6-10 HCP

2NT = unsual NT, 5+-5+ ♣ and ♦

 

Well, Your bid and why?

 

Thx

 

Jan

[dokoko]

Strange things are going on here. What do I know about the players at the table?

 

Without further info I will raise to 3nt and expect partner to have forgotten the system.

[The_Badger]

Strange things are going on here. What do I know about the players at the table?

 

Without further info I will raise to 3nt and expect partner to have forgotten the system.

 

I agree. The bidding doesn't look quite right. Players who play the Multi will usually want to make life difficult for their opponents (by pre-empting) by offering partner a choice at the three level with major suit support. But if they don't have major suit support, then they will have cards in the minors which patently they cannot have if partner's 2NT is unusual for the minors.

 

I'll probably wouldn't bid 3NT though as if partner had a balanced 17-20 count he could have bid 2NT on the previous round - if that is how you deal with the Multi.

 

I'm more inclined to bid a straightforward 4♣. Even if partner has the minors, let him decide whether you have enough for game. The double fit is good but it doesn't mean you have 11 tricks between the two hands.

[pescetom]

2♥ = relay, less then 15 HCP

Is this some variant of Multicolor?

2♥ is usually discouraging but passable with weak ♥, not a relay.

[rmnka447]

Is 2 NT in this auction really unusual?

 

If it is, the opponent's have big fits in both majors. Partner can hold no more than 3 major cards and you hold 4. That leaves at least 19 cards in the majors that the opponent's must hold. That there was no raise seems a bit suspicious to me.

 

But, I'll accept OP statement that it is. If partner has made an Unusual NT that forces us to the 3 level VUL on poor suits, that's partner's problem. However, I do have a positive hand and preference for one of the minors.

 

I'm bidding 4 ♣.

[Cyberyeti]

Is 2 NT in this auction really unusual?

 

If it is, the opponent's have big fits in both majors. Partner can hold no more than 3 major cards and you hold 4. That leaves at least 19 cards in the majors that the opponent's must hold. That there was no raise seems a bit suspicious to me.

 

But, I'll accept OP statement that it is. If partner has made an Unusual NT that forces us to the 3 level VUL on poor suits, that's partner's problem. However, I do have a positive hand and preference for one of the minors.

 

I'm bidding 4 ♣.

 

They don't have big fits in both majors, the auction has effectively gone 2♠(weak)-P-P-2N(unusual)

[smerriman]

They don't have big fits in both majors, the auction has effectively gone 2♠(weak)-P-P-2N(unusual)

How can they not have big fits in both majors? It is your partner who bid 2NT, so if they don't have majors and you don't either..

[Cyberyeti]

How can they not have big fits in both majors? It is your partner who bid 2NT, so if they don't have majors and you don't either..

 

They can have a monster fit in one major, and have decided not to bounce it as neither of you appear to be bidding, think 0355 for partner.

[rmnka447]

They can have a monster fit in one major, and have decided not to bounce it as neither of you appear to be bidding, think 0355 for partner.

 

If partner is indeed 0=3=5=5, they have 12 cards in ♠ and 7+ cards in ♥. With any semblance of points (5+?), I have tough time seeing how responder isn't bidding at least 4 ♠ with certainly holding at least 5 ♠ and very likely 6.

 

If partner is instead 3=0=5=5, then they have a 9 card ♠ fit and a 10 ♥ fit. But on this distribution, it looks 5 of a minor is cold unless partner has horrendous suits. But with 6-3 in ♠ and favorable vulnerability, it would be right for responder with a smattering of points to raise 2 ♠ to 3 ♠.

[helene_t]

Is this some variant of Multicolor?

2♥ is usually discouraging but passable with weak ♥, not a relay.

It is often called a non-forcing relay. What's in a name ....

[dsLawsd]

I'm tempted to have an urgent call requiring a quick exit,

but in the mean time I will bid 3S (which should be shortness) and let partner sort it out.

[Cyberyeti]

If partner is indeed 0=3=5=5, they have 12 cards in ♠ and 7+ cards in ♥. With any semblance of points (5+?), I have tough time seeing how responder isn't bidding at least 4 ♠ with certainly holding at least 5 ♠ and very likely 6.

 

If partner is instead 3=0=5=5, then they have a 9 card ♠ fit and a 10 ♥ fit. But on this distribution, it looks 5 of a minor is cold unless partner has horrendous suits. But with 6-3 in ♠ and favorable vulnerability, it would be right for responder with a smattering of points to raise 2 ♠ to 3 ♠.

 

If you think you are seriously outgunned, and have a 12 card fit, I've seen the tactic of NOT bouncing the auction work really well, you judge your opponents and either go high or low but not in the middle. Double fits you do bounce without announcing it's a double fit normally.

 

Unless I need a new partner, partner can't be strong balanced because he should have bid 2N first time, so this auction makes no real sense unless somebody's done something unusual.

[ahydra]

this auction makes no real sense unless somebody's done something unusual.

 

Pun intended?

 

What would be 2NT over 2H? The point people are making about the apparent lack of spades in the deck is quite a valid one. It honestly feels like partner has a natural 2NT overcall with a spade stop but no heart stop, and we should just raise to 3NT. But if we really trust him to have an unusual NT, I would bid either 4C or 5C depending on how strong you think he should be for that.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Pun intended?It honestly feels like partner has a natural 2NT overcall with a spade stop but no heart stop, and we should just raise to 3NT.

 

Most of those hands just double.

[Vampyr]

It is often called a non-forcing relay. What's in a name ....

 

Well, it is an unusual term which can only confuse, especially if you have unusual methods over pass-or-correct bids (we play double for takeout or penalty). So if a bid were described as a relay partner and I might be on different wavelengths, which is obviously dangerous with a two-way double.

[Cyberyeti]

Well, it is an unusual term which can only confuse, especially if you have unusual methods over pass-or-correct bids (we play double for takeout or penalty). So if a bid were described as a relay partner and I might be on different wavelengths, which is obviously dangerous with a two-way double.

 

Cough once for ... (and in case it isn't clear, I am joking)

[Hilver]

Well, first of all thank you for your replies.

 

As regards about 2♥, maybe I indeed should have used the term non forcing relay as OH may pass it.

 

Well, why posting this bidding problem? Just because I was wondering what bid you would make if 2NT really is unusual.

I do understand why some of you doubting whether 2NT really was unsual.

 

Some of you choose to bid 4♣ and some 3NT. But no one made a bid of 3♣!

 

In practice 2NT was alerted and explained by the 3♣-bidder as being unsual. But the holding of the 2NT-bidder was:

♠ A Q 10

♥ Q 10 8 3 2

♦ K J 9

♣ 5 4

So it was meant as natural.

 

In practice 3♣ was bid, and the 2NT-bidder now bid 3NT (?).

 

So I have my reservations against the bidding.

In my opinion, 3♣ is underbidding and 3NT isn't allowed after having heard partners explanation of your 2NT-bid.

[msjennifer]

I have my own doubts.If partner is 5/5 in minors then opponents have only 7cards in minors.Let me assume that opener has 8 HCP(midway between 6And 10) 2H is announced as relay.Considering that the meaning in today's Bridge is Pass or correct the responder can very well have a hand with 3/3 in the majors and a hand where he does not wish to play in 3 H which he would have shown by a bid of 2S And about 9/13 HCP only.(that is my personal opinion since with 14 or more or less HCPwith violent pattern as he then either would have preempted or made some sort of game try.) In that case partner can have a genuine 15/17 NT pattern hand which he could not bid because of the multiple meanings given for the 2D opening bid.Right now ,with the explanation given by OP my bid would be 4C.

[Cyberyeti]

Well, first of all thank you for your replies.

 

As regards about 2♥, maybe I indeed should have used the term non forcing relay as OH may pass it.

 

Well, why posting this bidding problem? Just because I was wondering what bid you would make if 2NT really is unusual.

I do understand why some of you doubting whether 2NT really was unsual.

 

Some of you choose to bid 4♣ and some 3NT. But no one made a bid of 3♣!

 

In practice 2NT was alerted and explained by the 3♣-bidder as being unsual. But the holding of the 2NT-bidder was:

♠ A Q 10

♥ Q 10 8 3 2

♦ K J 9

♣ 5 4

So it was meant as natural.

 

In practice 3♣ was bid, and the 2NT-bidder now bid 3NT (?).

 

So I have my reservations against the bidding.

In my opinion, 3♣ is underbidding and 3NT isn't allowed after having heard partners explanation of your 2NT-bid.

 

3N is clearly abusing the UI. If 2N is natural as he must assume then what is 3♣ ? to play ? some sort of major suit enquiry looking for a 4-4 heart fit ? He either passes or bids hearts, but never 3N.

[msjennifer]

On seeing the actual hand all my guesses proved wrong.But is not stretching the hand by passing on the previous turn and then bidding 2NT now a bit confusing?

[pescetom]

It is often called a non-forcing relay. What's in a name ....

Useful to know, thanks. A name is just a name, but meaning is important, and I still find even "non-forcing relay" to be a mystification when the correct explanation is "pass with ♥ or correct to ♠".

 

Well, it is an unusual term which can only confuse, especially if you have unusual methods over pass-or-correct bids (we play double for takeout or penalty). So if a bid were described as a relay partner and I might be on different wavelengths, which is obviously dangerous with a two-way double.

Exactly. We play double here as takeout of ♥ (with some artificial replies) and it is important to know if this is on or not.

[miamijd]

I'm believing partner -- 5C.

 

I'm going to assume no one has made a mistake in the bidding (otherwise, it's not a good question). In that case, the Multi bidder has a weak 2 in spades that his partner didn't want to raise. That's puzzling, because the opponents appear to have 19 cards in the majors (unless partner is making his bid on 2254). One would have thought that responder, holding lots of major cards, would have bid 3H or 4H (both pass or correct).

 

In the "standard" defense vs the Multi, a X of 2H is takeout, and 2NT is a standard 15-18 systems on. So unless partner has a moose (in which case he would have Xed), those options weren't available. He could have bid 3D and hoped to overcall 4C later with the right hand, but other than that, he had to pass at his first turn. So he could have a wide range of hands now.

 

If partner is 3055 or 2155 (the most likely possibilities unless he has bid 2NT on 9 cards in the minors), then game is a decent shot. If you can't make game, the opponents probably can. So I think I will just believe partner, bid 5C, and put the opponents to the guess.

 

Cheers,

mike

[Tramticket]

Interesting discussion. Do others have meanings agreed for 2NT in 8th seat?

 

Our notes do have 2NT in 6th seat as Unusual. I've no idea whether this is a good treatment, I don't think it has come up yet!

[PhilG007]

Pass With this motley collection there's nothing to get excited about.

[dokoko]

Well, it is an unusual term which can only confuse, especially if you have unusual methods over pass-or-correct bids (we play double for takeout or penalty). So if a bid were described as a relay partner and I might be on different wavelengths, which is obviously dangerous with a two-way double.

 

You should accept that different people call the same thing differently. That's why you should not just name the convention used but explain it's meaning. And when opponents describe their bid with a term you are unfamiliar with ask for further explanation. That way you will learn that what they call "nonforcing relay" is in fact what you would call "pass or correct".

 

BTW I have sometimes even heard the term "weak relay". While technically this describes the same situation, as a TD I would judge this as MI when the weak relay happens to be bid with some misfitting 15-count.