ATB / how should the bidding have gone?

[heart76]

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=SAJ7H532DQ872CKQT&w=SHAKJT97DA64CAJ97&nn=smerriman&n=SQ432HQ864DK5C543&e=SKT9865HDJT93C862&d=e&v=n&b=34&a=P1DD1H3SD3NP4SDPPP&p=H2HKH4C2HAH6C6H3CAC3C8CTC7C4S5CQSTS7H7SQC5S6CKC9S8SJH9S2D7D4DKD3HQS9H5HTDJDQDAD5D6S3D9D2S4SKSACJD8HJH8DT]400|300[/hv]

 

One thing I always do on a post mortem is to look back at what went wrong before you got stuck.

Although some have absolute criteria to decide anything, much more is left to partnership agreement nowadays.

So if you run and don't listen you never learn.

 

I would open a preemptive 2♠ or multi with E's cards. White vs red, a void in H, as low as 2-3 HCP.

You miss the chance in the first round and then decide to preempt over partner's TOX? With 6 bad cards?? No way. You don't even have to bid, so bid a calm 1♠ now or chicken out again and pass.

Ask yourself: who am I preempting? If p has ♠, I take away the space to decide about bidding 4. If he doesn't...

3NT is not nice either. I'd ask what the double is and pass and wait for the bad news or XX if it's AGREED as SOS. We may play a lesser evil in 4♣ or 4♥.

 

Where do I put the blame?

3♠ gets 90% for me. I understand the expectation of tolerance for the other 3 suits, but that does not apply to strong hands.

Like the 2♣ opening it's generally 20/22+ points, but it's also less with 9 tricks...

10% goes to 3NT. Just 10% since it did not get X and it got removed to 4♠ anyway!

Actually, this makes me reconsider: E had not learnt to preempt right away beforehand; was inconsistent in his 2nd bid and did not learn anything from p's 3NT...

[Cyberyeti]

True, that's a possible hand. But as East I'd want to be in 6C and we can get there via ... - 4S - 5C - 6C.

 

You can, but W will pass 4♠ expecting something wild like 8 small spades and out, bidding 5♣ is very wrong.

[sfi]

And here we disagree. The hand you posit would have bid 4S initially. Whatever East is showing, it can't be that.

[Cyberyeti]

And here we disagree. The hand you posit would have bid 4S initially. Whatever East is showing, it can't be that.

 

It very much shouldn't, either as an opener in first seat or over the double. Barbecues partner with any really big hand short in spades.

 

3♠ says:

 

I couldn't open 2/3/4♠ in first seat

 

I make no promises about the worth of my hand in any other denomination.

 

If you have any sort of fit this may actually be worth a lot more than the point count.

[nekthen]

This is an evaluation question for West. IMO this is not a particularly strong hand, unless I get some support, so I vote 1♥ not dbl

As for East, his (I assume male) behaviour is as bad as his bidding.

I can sympathise with not opening a weak 2, but I would pass 1♥ from N, I have a weak hand, but I do have the spades. Partner has either

1. A regular take out dbl. This looks and smells unlikely

2. A balanced hand too strong for 1N. Possible and he will be able to bid it later

3. A single-suited rock crusher. most likely and almost certainly hearts

 

Partner thinks he has type 3. I disagree but that's bridge. I am glad to know ML and SH agree!

 

What can South do now? Pass and hope or bid 1N and hope.

If he passes West can double and NS will have to settle for playing doubled somewhere

After 1N West cannot double, because he will be showing hand 2. If he passes he is indicating hand 1, so must bid 2♥, which gets passed out

[LBengtsson]

The worst bid is South double of 3♠!!! Not support, not TOX, not on this planet LOL

[Cyberyeti]

The worst bid is South double of 3♠!!! Not support, not TOX, not on this planet LOL

 

Agreed, I'd have passed over it.

[miamijd]

For what their worth (which isn't a lot), here are my thoughts:

 

1. Over South's 1D, there are three good choices, not two.

 

A. X is OK. The only possible trouble comes when partner has something like KJ seventh of spades and out and decides to bid 4S (normal enough).

 

B. 1H is fine, too. There are two potential problem auctions. First, it might go all pass with partner having enough for game. For those who say this never happens, exchange the Q and 2 of hearts and that's probably exactly what would happen. Second, if partner bids 1S, what do you do now? You don't have a forcing heart call. 4H? Which brings us to the third option ...

 

C. 4H. You have a five loser hand with great hearts and a spade void. Looks like a good time to shoot out 4H and X the opponents if they bid 4S. Partner will get the message. This bid doesn't fare too well on this hand, but I think it's worth considering.

 

2. Over 1H, East's 3S bid is perfect. He just picked the wrong hand for it.

 

3. South did you a favor with his X of 3S. Why would you want to bid 3NT over South's X? You know your partner has nothing but a pile of spades. You either pass and hope your high cards are enough for him to make it (he's down one, but you can't know that) or you bid 4H, which is no longer a cue bid over South's X (if you had a good hand with spade support, you would XX, not make a 4H cue bid). Yes, I see that 3NT works out fine here, but you can't know your partner has the diamond cards you need.

 

4. East should pass 3NT- 100%. It certainly sounds like (A) West has a very strong hand with a club suit and (B) South has a spade stack. When the opponents make a penalty X of 3x, it's generally not a good idea to play 4x.

 

5. East should not leave the table in a huff. Someone please notify the BBO recorder :)

 

Cheers,

mike

[Tramticket]

Absolutely disagree with this, you are pressured by partner's 3♠ bid which to me shows at least 6 spades, and you are telling partner that you heard his spade bid and chose 3N. To me, void, Axx, Axx, AKQJxxx would not be atypical.

 

If you hold A3, A974, AKQ, Q54 you are too strong to overall 1NT and will presumably double with the intention of bidding NT at the lowest level.

 

For me, this is not only a possible hand for West's 3NT bid in the given sequence, it it the most likely hand type and the shape that East should 'expect'. You might argue that East has shown a six-card suit and that West should therefore raise spades, but this does not get across the strength and hand type. Of course the auction has been squeezed and the 3NT bid has to cope with multiple hand types, but I don't think the 4S bid is as silly as you suggest.

 

EDIT: miamjid of course gives the correct reason why 4S might be silly - if South's double of 3S is penalty then of course 4S is silly 🤐

 

Actually I have no idea what the double was!

[iandayre]

On overall strength, the W hand is a minimum for double-and-bid. But the S void is a huge minus. I would overcall 1H.

 

It's true that E has a possible 2S opener at favorable. Having not done that, 3S is exactly correct.

 

Now back to W as it went. H spots call for action, so 3NT OK. E has bid the hand and should pass, but I suppose most would go on to 4S.

 

I have no idea what S was doubling on at any point.

[heart76]

2. Over 1H, East's 3S bid is perfect. He just picked the wrong hand for it.

 

Is this irony or are you actually serious? :)

 

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

 

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!

Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.

You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:

- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind

- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

 

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?

If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

[rmnka447]

I think you're underestimating the W hand, let's give W something very normal, minimum but perfect, Axxx, xxxx, x, AKxx, your 4 count will make 4♠ opposite this with spades 2:1 and may not even need that. 3♠ to me is a shapely bad hand, 2♠ to me may imply more strength and less shape.

I have no problem with your comments. As I said in my analysis, if the 3 ♠ just shows a long suit then I think pass is correct. But that depends on partner having that same interpretation of what that bid means. With a presumably pick up partner on BBO, that's quite a stretch.

 

I'm not sure I'd have a clear understanding of what 3 ♠ meant as an advance after a double even if made by some long time partners. If there's likely to be some misunderstanding, then it's probably better to not make that bid.

[miamijd]

Is this irony or are you actually serious? :)

 

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

 

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!

Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.

You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:

- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind

- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

 

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?

If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

 

3S is exactly the sort of hand East has. 1sp here would be a free bid, so it's a great 5 to 8 or so (instead of 0-bad 8). 2sp would be a great 8 to 11. With 12+ you would cue-bid 2D. So what is 3S? A pile of spades and not a lot of strength. Your partner has Xed a 1d opener; how many spades do you expect him to have? At least 3, likely 4, right? So the LOTT says get to the three level now and describe your hand in one fell swoop. Textbook.

 

Yes, if partner has 0-1 spades he'll have to bid 3NT or 4x.

 

Cheers,

mike

[Cyberyeti]

Is this irony or are you actually serious? :)

 

Edit as I read another post saying the same.

 

Who is 3♠ preempting? It is based on pure supposition that it will preempt the opponents to reach game in ♥!

Fact is, do you want to preempt? Open 2♠.

You missed the chance AND you RHO bids after your pd's TOX? PASS:

- the opponents do not have a fit yet, so your supposedly LoTT bid is thrown out blind

- if your pd reopens then you have a 2nd chance for your ♠

 

I guess the whole thing goes back to the original point: can the TOX contain a hand without ♠ tolerance?

If you don't allow this you have some kind of consistency, I suppose also with the school of "sound" weak 2s that have to start from 7(?) HCP.

 

X can only not contain spade tolerance if it's a good enough hand to deal with partner assuming it has spade tolerance. This one is borderline.

 

To Tramticket: on your strong hand with ♠Ax when partner bids 3♠, without the X you bid 4♠, now you pass or make a business XX if you have one available.

[helene_t]

Opposite a passed hand W might consider a direct 4H. Maybe E should have passed 3nt.

 

But there's no right and wrongs here. Good learning opportunity for sharpening your agreements.

[heart76]

3S is exactly the sort of hand East has.

 

But what is it: a preempt or a descriptive bid?

I'm asking because I believe it doesn't achieve either!

 

1sp here would be a free bid, so it's a great 5 to 8 or so (instead of 0-bad 8).

 

Agree, but 1S promises 4 cards. With 6 and a bad hand you can safely bid 1S here.

It is MUCH better than 3S, cause if your pd than raises S you can than safely raise to 3 or 4 as you have denied 8+ points. If your pd passes or bids a suit of his own, the picture changes.

 

Your partner has Xed a 1d opener; how many spades do you expect him to have? At least 3, likely 4, right? So the LOTT says get to the three level now and describe your hand in one fell swoop. Textbook.

 

I'm sorry but when you say "expect" and "textbook" you are assuming pd does not have a strong one-suiter and you are trying to place a LoTT bid in the replies to a TOX.

Btw, one fundamental prerequisite of the "wrap-up" LoTT rule (bid UP to the level of the number of trumps in your line) is that opponents actually have a fit.

Do they?

[Grommet1]

I remember a MSC problem that explored when to begin with a takeout double versus a simple overcall. One of the panelists said that you should begin with the overcall "whenever you can get away with it." The worst thing that happens if you overcall 1♥ here is that you play 1 ♥making four, take your minus 5 or 6 IMPS and move on to the next hand. There are a number of ways that beginning with a double can go wrong, including this nightmare. I think East's 4♠bid and subsequent behavior are good reasons to use the enemy button.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm sorry but when you say "expect" and "textbook" you are assuming pd does not have a strong one-suiter and you are trying to place a LoTT bid in the replies to a TOX.

Btw, one fundamental prerequisite of the "wrap-up" LoTT rule (bid UP to the level of the number of trumps in your line) is that opponents actually have a fit.

Do they?

 

No, "expect" should be taken as "expect if minimum", partner is making the right bid assuming you have a 12 count with 3-4 spades. You need extra strength to double without this, and the less spades you have, the more you need to double.

[miamijd]

But what is it: a preempt or a descriptive bid?

I'm asking because I believe it doesn't achieve either!

 

***It's both, and it does both. Probably 6 semi-decent spades and not much else. A good description of your hand, and a bid that gets you to the correct level (you hope) at once.

 

Agree, but 1S promises 4 cards. With 6 and a bad hand you can safely bid 1S here.

It is MUCH better than 3S, cause if your pd than raises S you can than safely raise to 3 or 4 as you have denied 8+ points. If your pd passes or bids a suit of his own, the picture changes.

 

*** No, it's not better than 3S; it's not nearly as good (though I see I won't convince you of that). Your partner has Xed a 1m opener; the next player has bid 1H; and you have a H void. How many hearts do you expect partner to have? Four? So the opponents have a 9-fit in H and you have a 9-fit in spades. Isn't it better to tell partner exactly what your hand is and let the opponents guess what to do? Or do you want to have the last guess?

 

I'm sorry but when you say "expect" and "textbook" you are assuming pd does not have a strong one-suiter and you are trying to place a LoTT bid in the replies to a TOX.

Btw, one fundamental prerequisite of the "wrap-up" LoTT rule (bid UP to the level of the number of trumps in your line) is that opponents actually have a fit.

Do they?

 

*** They certainly rate to have a fit on this auction, don't you think? How many hearts do you have? Zero; so the opponents have a 9-fit unless partner has a single-suited hand with hearts. That's possible, but pretty unlikely. In this case, he does, but if he has that hand, he has to be prepared to deal with bids like 3S. Here, he would have bid 4H without the intervening 1H bid, but with it, he can try 3NT.

 

And yes, when you respond to a double, you must assume partner has a typical minimum double, not the strong one-suiter type. If he has the strong one-suiter, then he'll have to do the best he can.

 

Incidentally, dealing with bids like 3S is another reason to bid 1H or 4H on this hand rather than X (not saying X is wrong; it's reasonable).

 

Cheers,

Mike