ATB / how should the bidding have gone?

[smerriman]

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=SAJ7H532DQ872CKQT&w=SHAKJT97DA64CAJ97&nn=smerriman&n=SQ432HQ864DK5C543&e=SKT9865HDJT93C862&d=e&v=n&b=34&a=P1DD1H3SD3NP4SDPPP&p=H2HKH4C2HAH6C6H3CAC3C8CTC7C4S5CQSTS7H7SQC5S6CKC9S8SJH9S2D7D4DKD3HQS9H5HTDJDQDAD5D6S3D9D2S4SKSACJD8HJH8DT]400|300[/hv]

 

I was North in this hand in the MBC, which resulted in East refusing to play and leaving, stating West can't double with a void and should have bid 1♥.

 

To me the double looked fine, with the idea of bidding hearts next, but things quickly got complex and I'm not sure how I would have handled continuations.

 

Double or 1♥?

 

3♠ or something else?

 

3NT or something else?

 

4♠ or something else?

Edited July 16, 2018 by smerriman

[Tramticket]

(1) East should be banned from every club in town for walking out.

(2) I lean towards double rather 2♥, but it is close. Change the ♥J to the ♥Q and there is no question that the hand is too strong for a 1♥ call.

(3) I think that 2♠ is enough. But 3♠ is not silly.

(4) I guess 3NT - horrid. 4♥ will not be taken as natural.

(5) I would also bid 4♠.

 

It is a nasty mis-fitting hand. Sometimes ***** happens. I'm glad we were not holding the N/S hands, we would have opened 1NT as South and things would have become pretty ugly for us once West doubles for penalties ... !

[ahydra]

I'd open 2S as East, which would change things dramatically. (And like Tramticket I also play a weak NT and would end up going for about 800 in 1NTX or 2HX. :/)

 

I agree with West evaluating that lovely hand as (just) too good for 1H. 3S is, I assume, meant to be pre-emptive (that's probably the best description - 1S is pathetic and 2S should be more constructive), and West's 3NT is fair enough, but after that East must sit for it. When you've pre-empted, don't bid again! He can visualise the kind of hand West must have to bid 3NT and not 4S - a double-then-bid-strength hand with at most a singleton spade and a good heart stop.

 

ahydra

[gszes]

My partner is a passed hand and we have 6 potential losers that passed partner will have to help cover for us to make game. Once that is taken into consideration, a 1h overcall gets my nod vs the slightly more dangerous x with a void in the highest ranking of the suits we are supposedly showing support for. Having said that, 3s seems like a bit of a stretch especially since partner is a huge favorite to have heart honors poorly placed opposite our void. There is also the problem with the overall lack of strength and I feel 2s is sufficient to begin showing the east hand values with length helping to make up for some of the lack of power. 3n should have been a warning sign to east since the bidding has pretty much marked east with a long, no weak 2s opener means not a very good, spade suit and not much power.

[Tramticket]

What was South intending to show when he doubled 3♠? Penalty? Take-out? On a minimum 4333 12-count? The double of 4♠ is not much better. South got very lucky.

[P_Marlowe]

#0 be happy East left

#1 you can make an argument for both, I guess I would start with 1H

#2 3S is ..., the hand is not strong enough for the bid, you dont need to open the hand

with a weak 2, I dont know why not, but ok, but 3S now is just ...

#3 What is the alternative to 3NT?

#4 Pass, and preparing an apology?

 

as I said, be happy he left.

 

I only looked at the bidding from E/W.

Double of 3S is just asking for it, but maybe he had a tell with regards to East.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[eagles123]

i much prefer 1H to x from west but I think the biggest error in the auction is east's pull to 4s. 3N isn't a bid that asks for an opinion imo

[steve2005]

"West can't double with a void"

That's a new one!

Check bidding textbooks you will find plenty of doubles with a void,

[Tramticket]

I think the biggest error in the auction is east's pull to 4s. 3N isn't a bid that asks for an opinion imo

 

It's difficult. The 3NT bid would normally show a balanced hand too strong for an initial 1NT over-call - say 18-19 (at least it would without the fatuous double of 3♠). If West did hold this hand, the pull to 4♠ would be normal, surely? Unfortunately West has manufactured a 3NT bid with an unbalanced hand because he can't bid hearts naturally (his original plan).

[ggwhiz]

How things have changed and old is new again.

 

Marty Bergen has a whole chapter in Points Smoints, Offshape Doubles are Nothing But Trouble. How dare the opponents bid again after you double! Hint: They have gone from often in the 70's to pretty much always today when you have shape like this.

 

Especially with a spade void, 1♥ has never gone float since the 1950's. That said, good riddance to East for violating the first rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging. The East hand is a 2♠ opener and a direct 4♠ bid over the double even if North passes.

[JanisW]

Of course, East should not have left (very poor showing), but I think his criticism of the double is correct.

I consider it a pour call with a spade void. With a six-Looser count, I'd have gone the low route of 1♥. The auction is very unlikely to end there, considering how many Spades I hold. If the hand were a bit stronger, I would've rather bid 4♥ than double. Opposite a passed partner I recall some good results with simply bidding what I'm hoping to make.

 

regards

JW

[Winstonm]

The real villain is North for his 1H bid. From here on out in the auction, all heart bids from West sound like cue bids supporting spades. Ah! :P

 

Quite frankly, I easily could have walked into this same nightmare scenario - and it gives me pause to wonder if overcalling (not my regular method with this much strength) shouldn't be adopted - but then I think, how often will LHO bid my 6-card suit after a double? At the same time, a jump to 4S is problematic, so maybe the solution is with hearts to overcall?

 

I would put this one down to bad luck. A reasonable partner would look at your hand, the auction, and realize that forces beyond anyone's control took over this event, and it is the humor in the situation that should be emphasized, not the result.

 

Granted, it has taken me 67 years to learn this lesson.

 

Double and 1H are both reasonable choices - that one fairs OK and the other leads to disaster is due only mostly to the bridge gods having their spite.

FMP

[FelicityR]

The double is bad to awful! Partner has already passed and there are 13 ♠s outstanding. It's unlikely that the auction is going to die after P - 1♦ - 1♥. It's a very good hand but not in support of ♠s, the highest ranking suit. There's nothing wrong with off shape takeout doubles with strong hands, as long as you can cover every eventuality. This is an exception to the rule.

[Cyberyeti]

I would put almost all the blame on E, this is a 3N bid you don't remove without something truly extraordinary, if you do, you deserve partner having exactly 9 tricks in his own hand and no spades.

 

3N hasn't gone off yet, easy to do something horrible with the lead.

 

To me it's a WTP 1♥ overcall, but I can see it's not clear for many people.

[rmnka447]

When playing casually on BBO, I see behavior like East frequent enough to know it's not that unusual. But it's still unconscionable.

 

As for OP questions --

 

I have no problem with the double. I think the key on strong overcall hands is whether you're willing to rebid the hand at the 3 level at your next opportunity to speak. I think this is good enough for that, so double is fine planning to bid ♥ next.

 

I think where the auction got off the tracks is with the 3 ♠ bid by East. IMO, the right bid is 1 ♠. Since North has bid 1 ♥, East is under no obligation to make any bid. So East's 1 ♠ bid must preclude it being made on a complete bust. I would not have a problem if someone wanted to bid 2 ♠ by evaluating the ♥ void at full stroke. But that evaluation is highly dependent on finding a fit. IMO, 3 ♠ is insane with a very mediocre, at best, ♠ holding and not so many points. Opposite a minimum range TOD, it could be a disaster.

 

I'm not sure what West was thinking 3 ♠ meant in bidding 3 NT over 3 ♠ doubled. If West thought it just showed long ♠, then the right action was to pass and let East play 3 ♠x. This is an example of a theme that comes up in hands from time to time. West can see that East's ♠ aren't likely to much help in 3 NT, but that West's HCs are likely to provide tricks for East.

 

OTOH, it might be that West expected good ♠ and values in the East hand and was making a practical bid.

 

The 4 ♠ bid was also insane. East has already shown the hand that was held. West heard East's bid and made a decision to bid 3 NT. With any sort of ♠ fit wouldn't West raise ♠ rather than bid 3 NT? West bid 3 NT and is responsible for the result in that contract. This is a classic case of East deciding to save partner without a clear cut notion of what partner's hand is. The moral is "Don't save partner." Bidding 4 ♠ is also a case of East bidding the same values twice which is not good bidding.

 

I have no problem with North bidding 1 ♥ in this auction. While it's quite possible West might have 4 ♥, there's no guarantee that West does, so a N/S ♥ fit could exist.

 

I think South's call over 3 ♠ should be pass.

[dsLawsd]

Blame it on the Bridge Gods! It is a hand that you either zig or zag and the BGs answer.

I vote for 4 Hearts as the bid, but have great sympathy for double or at rubber bridge 1 Heart. At least I am less likely to be doubled and pard does not need much for it to make- and if he does have a fit we might coast into slam.

Suppose N-S have spades- will they now try it over 4 H?

And on to the next deal no matter the result.

And East would be suspended from my Club for some number of months.

[tritonium]

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?s=SAJ7H532DQ872CKQT&w=SHAKJT97DA64CAJ97&nn=smerriman&n=SQ432HQ864DK5C543&e=SKT9865HDJT93C862&d=e&v=n&b=34&a=P1DD1H3SD3NP4SDPPP&p=H2HKH4C2HAH6C6H3CAC3C8CTC7C4S5CQSTS7H7SQC5S6CKC9S8SJH9S2D7D4DKD3HQS9H5HTDJDQDAD5D6S3D9D2S4SKSACJD8HJH8DT]400|300[/hv]

 

I was North in this hand in the MBC, which resulted in East refusing to play and leaving, stating West can't double with a void and should have bid 1♥.

 

To me the double looked fine, with the idea of bidding hearts next, but things quickly got complex and I'm not sure how I would have handled continuations.

 

Double or 1♥?

 

3♠ or something else?

 

3NT or something else?

 

4♠ or something else?

South does not have an opening hand. It has 8 1/2 losers.

[aawk]

Double or 1♥? double, to strong for a overcall

 

3♠ or something else? ok for me

 

3NT or something else? ok for me

 

4♠ or something else? pass, trust your partner

[Cyberyeti]

 

 

I think where the auction got off the tracks is with the 3 ♠ bid by East. IMO, the right bid is 1 ♠. Since North has bid 1 ♥, East is under no obligation to make any bid. So East's 1 ♠ bid must preclude it being made on a complete bust. I would not have a problem if someone wanted to bid 2 ♠ by evaluating the ♥ void at full stroke. But that evaluation is highly dependent on finding a fit. IMO, 3 ♠ is insane with a very mediocre, at best, ♠ holding and not so many points. Opposite a minimum range TOD, it could be a disaster.

 

I'm not sure what West was thinking 3 ♠ meant in bidding 3 NT over 3 ♠ doubled. If West thought it just showed long ♠, then the right action was to pass and let East play 3 ♠x. This is an example of a theme that comes up in hands from time to time. West can see that East's ♠ aren't likely to much help in 3 NT, but that West's HCs are likely to provide tricks for East.

 

OTOH, it might be that West expected good ♠ and values in the East hand and was making a practical bid.

 

The 4 ♠ bid was also insane. East has already shown the hand that was held. West heard East's bid and made a decision to bid 3 NT. With any sort of ♠ fit wouldn't West raise ♠ rather than bid 3 NT? West bid 3 NT and is responsible for the result in that contract. This is a classic case of East deciding to save partner without a clear cut notion of what partner's hand is. The moral is "Don't save partner." Bidding 4 ♠ is also a case of East bidding the same values twice which is not good bidding.

 

I have no problem with North bidding 1 ♥ in this auction. While it's quite possible West might have 4 ♥, there's no guarantee that West does, so a N/S ♥ fit could exist.

 

I think South's call over 3 ♠ should be pass.

 

I think you're underestimating the W hand, let's give W something very normal, minimum but perfect, Axxx, xxxx, x, AKxx, your 4 count will make 4♠ opposite this with spades 2:1 and may not even need that. 3♠ to me is a shapely bad hand, 2♠ to me may imply more strength and less shape.

[GrahamJson]

I seem to be going against general opinion here, but I much prefer 1H to a double. Doubling with a void in an unbid major is just asking for trouble. Given that I would not expect a void opposite I sympathise with East’s take out to 4S, although I have no sympathy at all with his walking out.

 

I note that correct expert practice is to overcall on hands that would have been considered far too strong for the bid a few years ago, so I’m pretty sure most experts would have preferred 1H to a double.

 

The 3S bid is reasonable but I think 1S might have been safer when playing with an unfamiliar partner who might think that 3S shows a stronger hand.

 

On another thread I mentioned that the correct call is not always the best call. This is another example. Even if you consider a take out double to be the correct call on the west hand I think 1H is the best call as unless your partner is familiar with your style a TOX risks getting to a very silly contract whereas the worst that can happen if you verbally 1H is that you are left to play there when game is on.

[GrahamJson]

I have just checked “The complete book of take out doubles” by Mike Lawrence and “Double trouble” by Sally Horton. Both indicate that the west hand is unsuitable for a TOX. ML spends several pages discussing whether it is ok to double when holding a doubleton in an unbid major. He concludes that the hand needs to be very strong for such an action. In fact he gives as an example a stronger hand than the west one above as one where you should overcall because you lack three cards in one major. He doesn’t discuss doubling with less than two cards in an unbid major, but the inference is that you need close to a 2C opening in order to do this. SH more or less states this explicitly saying that you need game in your own hand before you can double with a side suit shortage.

[sfi]

Unlike others, I think the West hand has enough playing strength to double and bid hearts. The only issue is that someone might make a big jump in spades, and for tactical reasons I would normally choose 1H rather than double.

 

On the second round of bidding, West should just continue with the original plan and bid 4H. 4D is the cue bid to use when showing a good hand with spade support, so 4H is just natural. North may be psyching or (as in the actual hand) it may simply not matter.

 

3NT should have some modicum of spade support, so East's bidding looks fine.

[Cyberyeti]

 

3NT should have some modicum of spade support, so East's bidding looks fine.

 

Absolutely disagree with this, you are pressured by partner's 3♠ bid which to me shows at least 6 spades, and you are telling partner that you heard his spade bid and chose 3N. To me, void, Axx, Axx, AKQJxxx would not be atypical.

[sfi]

True, that's a possible hand. But as East I'd want to be in 6C and we can get there via ... - 4S - 5C - 6C.

[msjennifer]

My personal answers to the four questions posed are as under.The answers are based on the bidding given in the Post.1)One Heart.2)Two Spade.3) PASS4)PASSI feel that the double and then bid hearts at the next opportunity requires 8 winners which this hand does not have.Furthermore had the bidding gone 1D-x-2S-P- 3/4 S then one dare not bid 4H.The given hand deserves an intermediate 2H bid which I believe is very rarely played these days.Some players do play it 50percent weak and 50percent intermediate (a2H overcall).An overcall will at least tell partner to lead hearts if he is on lead.I think that as per normal,a Two suiter hand does not use a double as an overcall.The given hand is a Two suiter hand and in strictly my opinion ,which is a personal opinion strictly,my overcall will be one Heart although the hand as one feels is a wee bit weaker for a double.(and unsuitable also).