Opening Bid

[euclidz]

Tell me why, as dealer, I should / should not make an opening bid with this hand?

 

I don't mean why I can / can not legally open because it meets to requirements of rules x, y or z, I mean reasons why it is sensible good Bridge to open or stupid bad bridge to open?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s63haj4d43ckq8642]133|100[/hv]

[StevenG]

Tell me why, as dealer, I should / should not make an opening bid with this hand?

 

I don't mean why I can / can not legally open because it meets to requirements of rules x, y or z, I mean reasons why it is sensible good Bridge to open or stupid bad bridge to open?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s63haj4d43ckq8642]133|100[/hv]

Looks like a normal 1♣ opener to me.

[apollo1201]

All points in your suits, easy rebid. Only very strict ppl would pas. Compare to Jx Axx Kx Qxxxxx which now most would pass.

[FelicityR]

Opening 1♣

 

1. Including distribution points easily an opening bid (but see 2 below)

2. Honours in longest suits

3. Two honour tricks

4. Easy rebid

5. You've already bid, whereas overcalling might not be possible

6. Possible entry to long suit (♥A) outside long suit.

7. Lead directional

8. Meets rule of 19

 

Not opening 1♣

 

1. You are likely to be outbid

2. Distributional points should not be counted before a fit is established

3. The hand 'looks' more an overcall hand than an opening bid

4. Partner might disapprove :(

5. You are playing the rule of 20

 

Opening 3♣

 

1. Too much outside strength

2. Partner may seriously disapprove :( :(

3. Why pre-empt your partner when you have a semi-respectable 1♣ opener

 

I think the problem here generally is arriving in a game contract - more likely 3NT - with 22-24 points between the hands and finding it doesn't play well. It all depends whether your partner can see you with a 10-11 point hand opposite and six clubs, and whether you are playing 2/1, SAYC or Acol.

 

With 2/1 there's probably no way you can put on the brakes without annoying partner (who may be unlimited) by leaving the contract below game level. With SAYC and Acol there's a chance that partner with a 11 to a bad 13 point hand can leave you in a part score.

[LBengtsson]

[With 2/1 there's probably no way you can put on the brakes without annoying partner (who may be unlimited) by leaving the contract below game level. With SAYC and Acol there's a chance that partner with a 11 to a bad 13 point hand can leave you in a part score.

 

If the kqxxxx suit was spades or hearts, then 2/1 will go to game auto. Not with 1 club opener.

[Tramticket]

1C in first or second seat, 3C in third seat, pass in 4th seat.

 

Easy opener for me, since partner will expect this. If your partnership is very conservative, then I guess you might pass. Are people really that conservative?

[Stephen Tu]

How could there be a difference between 2/1 vs SA/Acol, given that no actual 2/1 sequences start with 1c?

 

The hand is borderline, it's unclear how it fares in the long run. When partner with some random 12/13 count opposite blasts 3nt after 2c, it's going to depend on how well the hands mesh and if the opps find the right lead.

[euclidz]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies (Felicity's reply in particular)

 

I would argue (tell me why I am wrong) that the strength in any 'rule of 19' hand is in it's length and shortages (trumps). And bidding it as an opening hand is only going to gain advantage if those lengths and shortages 'fit' with partners hand in a trump contract. The statistical odds of partners strength being in the same two suits as opener's hand are at best 50/50. I would then argue that this 50/50 bet is negated by the 20% chance of the bidding moving towards a NT contract. And, the weakness of this hand is not evident to partner when the bidding is moving towards a borderline 3NT contract i.e. partner is bidding expecting to see a minimum of 12hcp AND I would argue that is a good reason not to open 1C.

 

 

Statistics:

The hand was played by 16 people.

3 of those opened 1C, 13 passed.

Of the 3 that opened 1C two ranked themselves advanced; of the 13 that passed 3 ranked themselves as advanced.

[ggwhiz]

It's a partnership game. Some open all balanced 11's and this is better than that.

 

If I open I'll swiftly be in game opposite any non-decrepit 12 and too high too often. If I back in with a 2♣ overcall it's about what partner would expect. Other than 3rd seat 3♣ has no appeal.

 

General philosophy: Who is more aggressive (goes for game invites, accepts and competitive bidding scenarios too) opener or responder? Both work as long as the answer is one of you and you both have the same answer.

[Dumoti]

Well, it's 26 Zar Points so it has sufficient offensive potential. If you end up defending, you have 2 quick tricks so partner won't be disappointed with that. And if partner ends up on lead, you won't be embarrassed if he leads the suit.

[FelicityR]

How could there be a difference between 2/1 vs SA/Acol, given that no actual 2/1 sequences start with 1c?

 

The hand is borderline, it's unclear how it fares in the long run. When partner with some random 12/13 count opposite blasts 3nt after 2c, it's going to depend on how well the hands mesh and if the opps find the right lead.

 

You are entirely right in respect of 2/1 sequences after a 1♣ opening, as noted by Mr Bengtsson (above) too. But Acol bidding (for some club players) is a bit more constrained generally, and I cannot see many at my former club opening this hand. I e-mailed my son - who can play several systems and is a far better and more experienced player than me - and he felt opening as dealer was borderline noting "that 2/1 bidding is a tad more aggressive than Acol." He plays a 10-15 Precision system so would open 2♣ as standard.

[P_Marlowe]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies (Felicity's reply in particular)

 

I would argue (tell me why I am wrong) that the strength in any 'rule of 19' hand is in it's length and shortages (trumps). And bidding it as an opening hand is only going to gain advantage if those lengths and shortages 'fit' with partners hand in a trump contract. The statistical odds of partners strength being in the same two suits as opener's hand are at best 50/50. I would then argue that this 50/50 bet is negated by the 20% chance of the bidding moving towards a NT contract. And, the weakness of this hand is not evident to partner when the bidding is moving towards a borderline 3NT contract i.e. partner is bidding expecting to see a minimum of 12hcp AND I would argue that is a good reason not to open 1C.

 

 

Statistics:

The hand was played by 16 people.

3 of those opened 1C, 13 passed.

Of the 3 that opened 1C two ranked themselves advanced; of the 13 that passed 3 ranked themselves as advanced.

Your argument also assume, that the auction stays constuctive, / uninterrupted.

If the opponents get in, it is usually nice to have told partner somthing.

If they declare, with partner on lead, you will be happy to get a club lead.

Add. any club honor partner has, will be great, he should look happily at the

Jack of clubs ( let alone the Ace ) and give this card add. weight.

............

We open rule of 20, i.e. the hand would fall short, if you agreed to open rule 19, go for it.

If you agreed to open rule 19, but pass, change you agreement to rule of 20.

It does not really matter,where you draw the line in the sand, but know your line, and stickt

with it.

[Tramticket]

You are entirely right in respect of 2/1 sequences after a 1♣ opening, as noted by Mr Bengtsson (above) too. But Acol bidding (for some club players) is a bit more constrained generally, and I cannot see many at my former club opening this hand. I e-mailed my son - who can play several systems and is a far better and more experienced player than me - and he felt opening as dealer was borderline noting "that 2/1 bidding is a tad more aggressive than Acol." He plays a 10-15 Precision system so would open 2♣ as standard.

 

Light openings have been a feature of Acol from the very start. If you read older texts on Acol, this often quoted as a defining characteristic of the system, distinguishing Acol from other systems.

[HardVector]

Tell me why, as dealer, I should / should not make an opening bid with this hand?

 

I don't mean why I can / can not legally open because it meets to requirements of rules x, y or z, I mean reasons why it is sensible good Bridge to open or stupid bad bridge to open?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=s63haj4d43ckq8642]133|100[/hv]

Because this is a minor. You might have a case if it were a major, but in a minor, you are going to strive for the 3nt game, not the 5c game. In 3nt, you REALLY need the HCP necessary to open, or your club suit must be exceptional. Neither is the case here.

[thawp66]

The club suit is nice, but you make it easier for opps to find fit with 10ish opposite 10ish and they’ll usually outbid you fit ( if one exists).

[msjennifer]

I play Precision and Super Precision and hence I shall not open this hand in 1st and 2nd seat.In 3rd seat I shall open 2C as a lead indicator as also it is just a 7 loser hand.Playing Standard ,I personally feel,it’s a very borderline opening 1 bid.

 

For those playing standard system Felicity has given a very detailed lucid and rational reasoning.

[nekthen]

Playing Acol, I look at these hands and ask if I would open 1N (12-14). In this case I would not, so I pass. I want a 6 card major, then I think we all open this hand. The danger of being outbid by opps who would otherwise have passed out is too great.

 

Playing SAYC, it is even worse, I open 1♣, opps bid 1♠ and partner does not even know how many clubs I have.

[Left2Right]

I'm surprised that everyone (so far) has omitted the potential for penalties. I learned the hard way from the late Paul Soloway that failing to open a hand that has two defensive tricks (and enough playing value, of course) shortchanges partner in her ability to double the opponents off should the auction get a bit heated.

 

At matchpoints, one cannot afford to hide this particular light under a bushel. At IMPS, the wisdom of knowing when to bail (letting them declare) is every bit as important.

[GrahamJson]

As is often the case with these “what should I bid” questions there is more than one answer. There is the “correct” bid; the textbook bid you should make with a familiar and expert partner, and the “best” bid; the one you should make with your actual partner. In this case the correct bid is probably 1C (or 2C, playing Precision), for the reasons others have given,but if playing with a random BBO partner the best call is Pass. This is, amongst other reasons, because many on BBO get far too excited if holding a good hand opposite an opening bid. In this case an opening of 1C risks partner soaring off to 4NT just because he has a 15 count.

[miamijd]

I play Precision and Super Precision and hence I shall not open this hand in 1st and 2nd seat.In 3rd seat I shall open 2C as a lead indicator as also it is just a 7 loser hand.Playing Standard ,I personally feel,it’s a very borderline opening 1 bid.

 

For those playing standard system Felicity has given a very detailed lucid and rational reasoning.

 

If you play Precision, this looks like an OK 2C opener to me. Yeah, you're one HCP short, but this hand is pretty much what partner will expect.

 

If you play some form of natural system, it's a matter of partnership agreement. Opening these sorts of hands will (A) make life a bit tougher for the opponents when it's their hand (it's always easier to have an uninterrupted auction) and (B) get you to some 23 HCP 3NT contracts that make. On the other hand, opening will © lead to some minuses in game when passing would have produced a plus and © make life a lot more difficult for partner, because a "minimum" opener will now encompass a much wider range of hands, making the decision as to whether to invite or force game somewhat of a guessing game in a lot of situations.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[dsLawsd]

Hi. Hands like this depend on the type of event, the caliber of the competition and the state of your game. So no right or wrong answer in 2/1. In 3rd seat I bid something depending on partner's expectations.

 

In rubber bridge I would open 1 club vs Vulnerability- otherwise the state of my game rules.

 

At most Imp events it could be difficult if I open in 1st or 2nd.

This hand evaluates best if partner bids first.

 

Precision and perhaps K-S styles make for an easy decision to bid with

2C easy at the former.

 

That is probably why bridge is so popular- no one right answer as we must make decisions.

[fourdad]

Opening 1♣

 

1. Including distribution points easily an opening bid (but see 2 below)

2. Honours in longest suits

3. Two honour tricks

4. Easy rebid

5. You've already bid, whereas overcalling might not be possible

6. Possible entry to long suit (♥A) outside long suit.

7. Lead directional

8. Meets rule of 19

 

Not opening 1♣

 

1. You are likely to be outbid

2. Distributional points should not be counted before a fit is established

3. The hand 'looks' more an overcall hand than an opening bid

4. Partner might disapprove :(

5. You are playing the rule of 20

 

Opening 3♣

 

1. Too much outside strength

2. Partner may seriously disapprove :( :(

3. Why pre-empt your partner when you have a semi-respectable 1♣ opener

 

I think the problem here generally is arriving in a game contract - more likely 3NT - with 22-24 points between the hands and finding it doesn't play well. It all depends whether your partner can see you with a 10-11 point hand opposite and six clubs, and whether you are playing 2/1, SAYC or Acol.

 

With 2/1 there's probably no way you can put on the brakes without annoying partner (who may be unlimited) by leaving the contract below game level. With SAYC and Acol there's a chance that partner with a 11 to a bad 13 point hand can leave you in a part score.

 

I really enjoyed the above response. IMNTBHO, the question is totally about where you draw the line on what is an opening hand.

Admittedly I am old school, I have drawn the line as follows with more than my share of success.

The issue with this hand is that 2C cannot be bid as a weak 2.

 

1. The parameters I use for a weak 2 are 5-11 HCP points with 2 of the top 4 honors. (last part flexible in 3rd seat)

2. Parameters for a opening hand are 12 hcp and at least a 5 card suit OR 11 HCP, a 6 card suit and 2.5 Quick Tricks.

 

This hand does not qualify as an opener, but does as a weak 2. Hence, as regular partners and I discuss this is some detail, I would open 3C 1&2 seats, 1C 3rd seat and pass 4th seat.

 

Seems to me that reducing the gray areas in bidding and having a disciplined consistent approach works well across the board.

[Winstonm]

If your only strong opening bid is 2C, it might be wise to consider how wide of range of expected opening hands you and your partner are comfortable playing. I have no strong preference for light or sound openings, so I always went along with what my partner was comfortable using. Just keep in mind, if partner can open a 1-bid with 10 or 22, the responder has to be careful not to get too carried away and at the same time not be timid about passing with less than a normal responding hand.

 

With the hand in the OP, I personally don't see much benefit from an opening 1C bid because it is unlikely we will get to the wrong spot if I pass, there is no real preemption to a 1C opening, and minor suit games take 11 tricks so there's no huge benefit from finding a fit.

 

This same hand with a long major is worth an opening, IMO, although I have played weak two bid this strong.

[vladesch]

I would pass in first and definitely pass in second. I dont want to mislead partner if he has a reasonable hand.

If partner passes I will bid 2c on the second round.

In third seat I would bid 1c. I would pass in 4th.

[wank]

totally normal pass. passing once doesn't mean passing forever.