strong club Interference at the two level

[straube]

Say next hand preempts 2D after a strong club...a popular method is for dbl to show a balanced hand of 5+ hcps or an 8+ hcp hand with one or more suits.

That clarifies at least what 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3H means (GF with hearts).

 

Wondering what the 2S bid means. I would think 5 spades unless opener has 4 spades and no diamond stopper? What would 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3S mean then? Promises four spades? Three spades?

 

If double promises only a balanced hand, it will be far more frequent, but the bidding seems awkward (possible 4-2 fits for example).

 

If I remember right, IMprecision uses double for takeout. Would double after 1C (2D) promise at least 3-3 in the majors? What would 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3C mean? Forcing? Something like 3-4-1-5? 6-7?

 

If IMprecision double is takeout, then pass 2D with Kx Kxxx xx Jxxxx? I'm giving a difficult hand on purpose just to get clarity. A preempt of even 2D can create a lot of difficulty.

[benlessard]

I ve tried many stuff and regular neg is what I prefer. I like to play that opener rebid of 2M is not even forcing.

[helene_t]

I would play 2♥/♠ as NF, promising only four cards. As a responder, I wouldn't pass it with a doubleton.

 

Responder holding a semipositive with hearts and clubs is awkward. Maybe over opener's 2♠, 2NT is ostensibly 5♥4♣. I think we can live without the natural 2NT bid in this spot.

[straube]

Ben, could you detail your method for 1C (2D) ? Continuations, too, please.

 

I'm wondering about showing 4-cd major suits.

 

1C (2D)

..........dbl-4+ hearts

...............2H-3 or 4 hearts, nf

....................any bid=GF

...............2S-4+S (forcing?)

...............2N-0-2 hearts, nf (stopper not required but opener will usually have one)

..........2H-4+ spades

...............2S-3 or 4 spades, nf

...............2N-0-2 spades, nf (stopper not required)

 

I looked at hands that were showing specifically 4 hearts here and it seems like a fit was found a third of the time. Also a lot of 4-3 fits.

[foobar]

IMPrecision uses negative X, with 2-level transfers only to suits that could been bid naturally at the 2-level over their interference. With this hand, my vote be for a natural 3♣ (GF).

 

It might be a little bit of a stretch, but we rank to make some game opposite opener's presumed 17-19 balanced hand. Opener will presumably bid a 5+CM @ the 3-level and 3♦ would presumably be a stall looking for a 4-4 major fit (or less likely a slam cue in ♣.

[straube]

I found the following on a Google thread. What I've been wondering is whether dbl has to be takeout shape or not. If it shows takeout shape that really limits its frequency and it also means that there is less meaning for rebids. For example 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 3C means what? 3-4-1-5? Nf? Just a narrow target.

In the following scheme, dbl has a prepared bid...like 5-8 bal is ok if it has a stopper. So you can have 1C (2D) dbl P 2S P 2N without a problem or 1C (2D) dbl P 3S P 3N also without a problem. The 9+ with a suit can obviously be difficult if opener takes up much room.

 

A - immediate bid of a suit (except cuebid of opps suit) = 5-8 hcp, 5+ cards.

 

B - notrump = 9+ hcp, at least one stopper in opps suit, no suit worth bidding.

 

C - Cuebid = 9+ hcp, no stopper in opps suit, no suit worth bidding.

 

D - Double = 1 of 3 hands:

1) 9+ hcp w/ a 5+ card suit (bids suit at next turn).

2) 5-8 hcp w/ support (3+ cards) for all unbid suits. (raises opener next.)

3) 5-8 hcp w/ a stopper in enemy suit (bids nt at next turn)

 

E - Pass = either nothing to say, or wants to penalize the opps. Opener

is encouraged to reopen with shortness in the enemy suit, if he can stand

a penalty pass.

[DinDIP]

We have been using X as takeout for decades, first in conjunction with negative free bids, then negative free bids only at the two-level, then with transfers. In all instances double followed by a new suit has been GF, showing a flexible hand. For many years we also had an exception: double followed by the cheapest new suit after opener bids the cheapest or next-cheapest suit is equal-level conversion with semi-positive values, e.g.

1♣ (2♦) X (P)

2♥ (P) 2♠ == something like 4-2-2-5, 5-7

and

1♣ (2♦) X (P)

2♠ (P) 3♣ == something like 2-4-2-5, 5-7

This exception was to cater for the problem hands you identify.

 

In the last decade we've dropped that exception to have a simple, consistent rule that was better at handling the more important hands: those with GF+ values and an interest in more than one strain.

 

On the rare occasions the problem hands (that we previously handled with equal-level conversion) have occured we have usually just doubled and then treated them as GF hands, on the principle that it is better to find the right strain. While a major issue in theory, in practice such hands are (surprisingly, pleasingly) infrequent, and opener frequently has some extras.

[straube]

It seems like 1C (2D) dbl P 2N needs to be GF and promising a stopper. Otherwise opener is fixed when holding a stopper and a four-card major.

 

Then 1C (2D) dbl P 3D can deny a stopper and show interest in one or both majors.

[Trick13]

Whatever your double means it should cater for:

 

1♣ (2♦) X (4♦)

or

1♣ (2♠ ) X (3♠)

 

Having played it both ways, these days I prefer immediate bids to be game forcing. But if you knew the opponents weren't going to compete higher, then the opposite would be better.

[straube]

From Dan's book "Standard Modern Precision" he recommends dbl as 6-7 promising a rebid (unless opener rebids 2N) or 8+ balanced without a stopper. So...

 

1C (2D)...

 

dbl-6-7

.....2M-5+ cds and forcing

..........2S-5S, nf

.....2N-nf (stopper promised if partnership agreement)

.....3C-5+ cds and forcing

.....3D-no suit or stopper

 

2M-8+ natural

2N-8+ stopper

3C-8+ natural

3D-?

3M-6-7, natural?

 

or I might rearrange to

 

2H-8+ spades

.....2S-hearts

2S-8+ hearts

2N-8+ stopper

3C-8+ clubs

3D-6-7, 6 hearts

3H-6-7, 6 spades

3S-8+, 3-suited short diamonds

 

What I like about this is that opener doesn't have to jump or cue to force because the dbl promises a rebid. It would be easy to extend this idea to agree that opener can continue to force by offering new suits.

 

What I don't like about using dbl as takeout shape (6+ hcps) is that "6-7 takeout" is on the order of 10% of the 6+ hcp hands available (super small sample size so take with a bowl of salt) which means that for 10% of the time you have really uncomfortable auctions...such as...

 

1C (2D) dbl P

 

2H-nf

2S-nf

2N-nf

3C-nf

3D-forcing, looking for fit

3M-GF, sets trump

 

Any thoughts?

[straube]

Well, I tested a few hands and quickly found that opener often has a problem when not holding a 5-cd major or balanced with a stopper. If opener has takeout shape or a minimum hand with long clubs, he has a problem. If opener is allowed to rebid a 4-cd major (as a least of evils) it seems more playable but sometimes a 4-3 fit at the 3-level will be reached (and the 4-cd suit may be taking the tap).

[awm]

If you decide that double promises a rebid, it seems like you are basically forcing game when partner doesn’t have a 5M and rebids something like 2nt or 3C. This doesn’t really seem optimal.

 

If opener has a 5M he will balance over 1C-2D-P-P anyway, and if he has a minimum balanced hand with 3+ diamonds and I have 6-7 balanced with 3+ diamonds it seems like defending might be our best bet anyway. A lot of auctions time out better if I pass with diamond length and bid with diamond shortage, plus the more diamonds I hold the less chance a raise is coming (and of course if they raise and it comes back and I double it’s exactly this hand of 5-7 bal with diamond length/strength and very penalty oriented).

 

The takeout double helps us compete when opener would not balance (most typically the min balanced hand with diamond length) by giving opener a safe 2M bid. And of course we play lebensohl here (creating many options for opener to GF after the double by bidding 3C or 2nt...cue or 2nt...3M etc with the NF opener continuations being 2M, 2nt and drop in clubs, or of course pass and defend).

[straube]

 

The takeout double helps us compete when opener would not balance (most typically the min balanced hand with diamond length) by giving opener a safe 2M bid. And of course we play lebensohl here (creating many options for opener to GF after the double by bidding 3C or 2nt...cue or 2nt...3M etc with the NF opener continuations being 2M, 2nt and drop in clubs, or of course pass and defend).

 

I was totally missing that you used Lebensohl here. Responder doesn't rebid 3C with a GF hand then.

 

So 1C (2D) dbl P 2N P 3C can be passed. I'm supposing that 1C (2D) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3M is GF with a stopper and 4M.

 

What would 2N and then a 3D (cue) rebid be?

 

How about the meaning of 1C (2D) 2H P 2N P 3C P 3D?

 

Is 1N Lebensohl after 1S interference? Or 2N?

 

After 1C (2D) how do you proceed with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx? Is that a 3D bid? If you pass with that and opener doubles, then what? 3S forcing? 3D? I like the idea of passing with diamond length but then one has to differentiate awkward 6-7 from GF 8+ and I'm not sure how to do that.

[awm]

We don’t use Lebensohl over 1C-2D directly, only over double by opener or responder. We also don’t invite opposite the double; we use:

 

2nt...3M = 4M and diamond stop, GF COG

Direct 3M = 5+M or 4M w/o diamond stop, GF

3D = GF no diamond stop 2-places to play

3C = GF natural

2nt...3D = 44 in two unbid suits with a diamond stop

 

Responder normally bids 3d over 2nt with a GF hand, 3M would be a five card suit (rare, some inferences around X with a 5M and GF).

 

We do also play something Lebebsohl like after 1C-2D-2H (spades) since balanced minimum is bidding 2S. Basically 2nt here is club sign off or heart signoff or some GF with a diamond stopper. Maybe most useful is 2nt..3s to show a doubleton spade with a stopper and game values (lets responder pick 4S if he has six).

 

We would also play this way after 1C-2C (natural); the choice of games bids with 4M and a stop are really valuable and natural 2nt is pretty useless (if I don’t have a 4-card suit outside the opponents suit I am usually passing the double).

[straube]

Thanks. This is really helpful.

 

I’m still wondering what yo do with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx. It isn’t takeout shape. Do you cue 3D directly? GF bal no stopper? Or GF bal no stopper and two places to play. (trouble then with 4-3-3-3)? Either way I suppose this hand can rebid 3N without a stopper, relying on opener to pull.

 

If the interference were 2H I suppose you could use

3H-6S semi positive

3S-4S GF bal no stopper

 

but this doesn’t work for diamond interference unless you go

3D-6H semipositive

3H-4H GF bal no stopper

3S-4S GF bal no stopper

 

What do you think? How do you use these bids?

[awm]

Thanks. This is really helpful.

 

I’m still wondering what yo do with AKJx xx xxx Jxxx. It isn’t takeout shape. Do you cue 3D directly? GF bal no stopper? Or GF bal no stopper and two places to play. (trouble then with 4-3-3-3)? Either way I suppose this hand can rebid 3N without a stopper, relying on opener to pull.

 

If the interference were 2H I suppose you could use

3H-6S semi positive

3S-4S GF bal no stopper

 

but this doesn’t work for diamond interference unless you go

3D-6H semipositive

3H-4H GF bal no stopper

3S-4S GF bal no stopper

 

What do you think? How do you use these bids?

 

It's simple enough to agree that a direct cuebid is GF with one 4-card unbid major, no five-card suit, and length but no stopper in the opponents suit. This seems to handle all your examples.

[straube]

I’m assuming opener has 2N as Lebensohl after 1S interference, mostly to check on a heart fit.

 

It would be nice if 1C (2D) P P 2H P 3D could be a GF heart raise but there are still a few hands that need to ask for stoppers.

 

Thanks a lot. It seemed like there was high value in making a 2N rebid forcing but never occurred to me to use it as Lebensohl, same as you do after transfers. Clears up so much.

[DinDIP]

Hi Adam

I’m curious about your choice to use Lebensohl in auctions like

1♣ (2♦) X (P)

rather than Rubensohl.

 

I’ve always found Rubensohl to be more helpful than Lebensohl when the alternatives are invitational or GF+ AND there is a reasonable likelihood that the opponents may compete further. Lebensohl is a better option when there are three ranges or only a choice between INV and competitive ranges. (I note that Bo-Yin Yang advocated Rubensohl in all these kind of auctions in Terrorist Moscito.)

 

In this auction further competition is obviously highly unlikely but does that make Lebensohl more appealing?

 

It’s a question of how to allocate the space most usefully, how best to minimise wrong-siding and the degree to which consistency with other parts of the system is important.

 

Playing Rubensohl responder accepts the transfer with a minimum. Higher bids are GF and natural. (Note that means a different set of information is available compared with Lebensohl. Using Lebensohl, opener immediately shows GF or less-than-GF; if opener is GF then he doesn’t get to ascertain responder’s strength. Playing Rubensohl opener doesn’t show his strength immediately but always gets to know what responder’s strength is.)

 

Concern about wrong-siding means

1♣ (2♦) X (P)

3♦

shows a GF hand with long clubs, no four+card major and less than half a stopper (because 2N shows long clubs and -- if GF -- promises at least K/Qx/Jxx in the opponent’s suit; and 3♣ would be asking about stoppers and majors). Note that wrong-siding isn’t an issue in auctions like this one where the Rubensohl bidder is under the opponent’s suit (because if responder has a stopper it will always be over the suit) -- but it is consistent with what we do in other Rubensohl auctions where the bid is directly over the opponent’s suit, so wrong-siding is a concern.

 

The biggest loss, it seems to me is not being able to distinguish between hands that really want to play in 3N and those that want to show a stopper but allow partner to remove. (In general we jump to 3N to show the former and bid 2N (if Lebensohl) then 3N with the latter.

 

David

[awm]

Rubensohl gets the siding wrong here because we generally want opener to declare (especially on the 4M-plus-stopper hands which are quite common). All the three level auctions here are GF so we’re not trying to distinguish weak vs game hands (except in clubs where the responder 3d cue can only help us); auctions seem to tempo better in lebensohl.

 

The big advantage you’re getting from Rubensohl is the quest for half stoppers but two half stops isn’t great with two flat hands (you tend not to be able to hold up so you really need nine off the top and that’s rare without a long suit).

 

In general I’ve found Rubensohl is not so good opposite a takeout double; this auction feels more like (2D)-dbl than like 1nt-(2D)-bid.

[straube]

I’m hung up on 1S interference. It could be the case of “too many bids”.

 

Like if I want opener to declare NT and search for a 4-4 heart fit then

1C(1S) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3S? Or 3H?

 

If opener lacks a spade stopper but has 4 hearts and wants to GF then

1C(1S) P 3H?

 

But there’s 1C (1S) dbl P 2S which would deny a stopper and could search for fits up the line....including hearts

 

And 1C (1S) dbl P 3S probably is undefined whereas 1C (2S) dbl P 3S would be.....I don’t actually know that either because opener could just force with 3C, 3D, or 3H here (if he had either 5 or if he had 4 with no stopper).

 

Would you please explain how you continue 1C (1S) dbl?

[awm]

I’m hung up on 1S interference. It could be the case of “too many bids”.

 

Like if I want opener to declare NT and search for a 4-4 heart fit then

1C(1S) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3S? Or 3H?

 

If opener lacks a spade stopper but has 4 hearts and wants to GF then

1C(1S) P 3H?

 

But there’s 1C (1S) dbl P 2S which would deny a stopper and could search for fits up the line....including hearts

 

And 1C (1S) dbl P 3S probably is undefined whereas 1C (2S) dbl P 3S would be.....I don’t actually know that either because opener could just force with 3C, 3D, or 3H here (if he had either 5 or if he had 4 with no stopper).

 

Would you please explain how you continue 1C (1S) dbl?

 

I actually don't think we have any complicated agreements in this auction. Perhaps something very simple like:

 

Pass = five-plus good spades

1NT = natural like 17-19

2♣, 2♦, 2♥ = minimum, 4+ suit, not forcing

2♠ = game force not sure of strain (basically a catch-all for GF hands not suited to higher bids)

2NT = game force with spade stopper, may also have some interest in a suit contract (even may have four hearts)

3♣, 3♦, 3♥ = game force, five-card or longer suit (basically sets trump although 3NT is still possible after a 3m bid)

 

If opener bids 2♠, responder's first responsibility is to bid 2NT with a stopper. The 2♠ bid is usually balanced without a spade stopper, but some two- or three-suiter is also possible.

[straube]

So similar but opener's 2N rebid is GF with stopper instead of Lebensohl.

 

I'm thinking of writing up 1S overcalls separately from 2C through 2S overcalls. They seem enough different.

 

For 1C (1S) I don't know if there's a good use for a 2N response. Thinking...

 

.....dbl-takeout

.....2C-transfer

.....2D-transfer, only 6-7

.....2H-GF clubs

.....2S-GF hearts

.....2N-GF spades

.....etc-semipositives, natural

 

Regardless of whether this makes sense, it would be nice after 1C (1S) 2C to establish a heart GF faster. Like 1C (1S) 2C P 3H P 4H is the soonest that hearts can be agreed. Maybe sacrifice 1C (1S) 2C P 2S for GF hearts?

[straube]

I’m curious how you play Lebensohl against weak two bids. Same structure? I see all sorts of varieties on the internet and I just ordered an old copy of Anderson’s book on the topic.

 

I like the low memory load of 2N being weak or showing a stopper (the alternatives seem to clarify 4 vs 5cd suits while complicating the stopper situation).

 

There seems some redundancy for 2N and cue rebid vs 2N and bid a higher ranking suit. For instance, 1C(2H) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3M seems mostly the same thing (4 spades and a stopper).

 

1C(2S)dbl P (2N) P 3C P 3S seems like it needs to show 4 hearts.

 

OTOH

1C (2D) dbl P 2N P 3C P 3D seems like it could be used to show clubs as well as a stopper. With major(s) and a stopper just rebid 2N and then rebid majors up the line.

 

Maybe 2N and cue (if available) should show a lower ranking suit? In the case of heart preempted maybe just a stopper and diamonds? So the rule could be that 2N and a cue shows the suit below the cue bid.

[straube]

I've been realizing that when opener uses Lebensohl and responder has a GF hand, he can't be sure whether opener has a stopper or a hand that wanted to sign off in a lower ranking suit.

 

1C* (2C) 2H* P

2N* P ?

 

Opener may have intended to sign off in a red suit...or to establish a GF and grab NT.

 

I think that 3D here is GF waiting? But there is no bid to ask for a stopper.

 

So maybe 3C by responder should be GF and asking for a stopper and 3D should be the p/c bid.

 

If responder were say to rebid 3H, 3S or 3N those bids should promise stoppers.

 

 

 

Over

1C* (2D) 2H* P

2N P ?

 

It's a little bit easier. 3C is the p/c bid but 3D by responder should deny a diamond stopper.

 

I think this probably holds true for takeout doubles as well.

 

1C* (2C) dbl P

2N

 

is GF with a stopper. This isn't Lebensohl. What should responder's 3C rebid mean here? Just a minimum?

 

1C* (2H) dbl P

2N* P

 

3C here would be p/c. Easy continuations.

 

3D would be GF and natural. Opener would need then to cue bid 3H without a heart stopper but could suggest spades or 3N with a stopper.

 

3H would be GF without a stopper. Opener could look for a 4-4 spade fit and would pull 3N if hearts weren't stopped.

 

Any thoughts here? I think it's difficult.

[awm]

I don’t generally rank “how do we get to 3nt if takeout doubler has our only stopper” very high on the list of concerns. Yes it is possible he has Ax or Kx and we have nine running tricks, but the nine running tricks are often hard to diagnose and you can often make 4M or 5m on such hands too.

 

Of course if opener has a min with clubs and a stopper he bids 3nt after 1c-2d-X-p-2nt-p-3d.