4th seat

[Trick13]

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Our jump overcalls are defined as weak. Should we make an exception in this position?

South will rebid 2♣ over 1♠.

IMPS

[blackshoe]

Yes, you should. B-)

[ahydra]

Yep, it should be some form of constructive bid. For example, a "weak 2" is normally about 8-12 HCPs in 4th; intermediate or even strong jump overcalls are probably a good fit for balancing seat after 1x-p-p.

 

After (1D) p-1S; (2C) you might crawl to game via X-2D; 3D-3S; 4S or perhaps more directly X-3S; 4S

 

ahydra

[dsLawsd]

Yes- you are not preempting the opponents at this point.

But you should have some agreement about what they look like.

Here, I might Double first and then bid spades. And that fences in what a simple 1 Spade bid would show to reopen.

[rmnka447]

Yes, you should.

 

A simple 1 ♠ bid could be on anything from a 4 card suit and guts to a long suit with few values, but generally is less than an opener.

 

A double could be light and shapely, a normal take out double with about opening values, or an off shape takeout double with values.

 

1 NT shows some range of values with stoppers, most often something like 11-14.

 

So you need a way to show an overcall type hand with opening values. It's pretty typical then to define a jump in pass out seat as 12-14 and a good 6 card suit exactly the hand your asking about. It paints a pretty good picture for reopener's partner to make an intelligent decision about competing further. But if the hand was ♠ A10xxxx ♥ Kx ♦ AJxx ♣ x, I'd probably downgrade it to a 1 ♠ bid because of the lousy suit and slightly less value associated with the ♥ K being in front of the ♥ bidder.

 

Note that this scheme allows using a double followed by a new suit bid to show the "strong" overcall. So with something like ♠ AK10xxx ♥ Jx ♦ AKxx ♣ x, you'd go that route and partner's companion hand here would find an easy raise to 4.

 

Also, double followed by a NT bid would show a hand with stoppers and more than the 1 NT reopening bid -- 15-17?

[maartenxq]

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South will rebid 2♣ over 1♠.

IMPS

I do not see why 2 ♠ should not be some preemptive bid. Ok you can pass so it will not be your average garbage. I understand that the idea of this hand is to bid 4 ♠ on a 20 count. For this opponent gives you ammunition with his rebid. Now you van bid 2 ♠. I p sees fit so support you could risk bidding game because of your singleton.

 

Maarten baltussen

[Stephen Tu]

A simple 1 ♠ bid could be on anything from a 4 card suit and guts to a long suit with few values, but generally is less than an opener.

 

So you need a way to show an overcall type hand with opening values. It's pretty typical then to define a jump in pass out seat as 12-14 and a good 6 card suit exactly the hand your asking about. It paints a

 

This light to jump? Less than an opener for 1s?? I think this is too aggressive/restrictive.

 

I think this leaves too much ground to cover with stronger hands, especially if opener has enough to bid again. I'd expect jump to 2s to be more like 15-17/14-16, and 1S range to be something like 8-15/16/17 depending on agreements. Double then bid suit should be reserved for hands stronger than this that are afraid of 1s getting passed out when you have game on power. When you need some sort of fit and a 9+ count for game, partner won't be passing 1S, and forcing yourself to double first just because you have a full opener leaves you in awkward situations at high levels after auctions like (1H)-p-(p)-x;(2H)-3D-(P)-? Do you really want to bid 3s here forcing on a 13 count?

 

Also, double followed by a NT bid would show a hand with stoppers and more than the 1 NT reopening bid -- 15-17?

One thing is that balancing over a major is somewhat different from balancing over a minor, because partner will more frequently be forced to bid 2 of a minor, requiring you to bid 2nt next. This might be too high if opener has a good suit to lead and a couple entries, or partner has less than average because opener stronger than average or responder a max pass. So it's not uncommon to play balancing range over a major as somewhat stronger/wider, 12-16, with x then nt as 17-18, balancing jump to 2nt being 19-21 or so. The wider range can be a bit awkward to bid over (can use modified stayman to break down the ranges), but it's also safer than getting to 2nt with 15 opposite 6.

 

[yunling]

No "weak" jump here but I believe 2♠ should still be the low end of your overcall, say 9-12.

 

I'll bid 1♠ then 2♠ to show a maximum overcall with 6♠ but still not reaching 4♠ without some competition from opponents.

[Left2Right]

By the way, Trick13,

 

The "exception" you will be making is not actually an exception, it's the rule.

 

International champion Richard Pavlicek has condensed this topic from what you will find in published books.

http://www.rpbridge.net/5e00.htm

Your is example 4.

 

Cheers.

[johnu]

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Our jump overcalls are defined as weak. Should we make an exception in this position?

 

In balancing position, the standard bidding interpretation is an intermediate jump overcall, an opening bid in HCP and a good 6+ card suit. I don't know any good players who play 2♠ as weak.

[rmnka447]

This light to jump? Less than an opener for 1s?? I think this is too aggressive/restrictive.

 

I think this leaves too much ground to cover with stronger hands, especially if opener has enough to bid again. I'd expect jump to 2s to be more like 15-17/14-16, and 1S range to be something like 8-15/16/17 depending on agreements. Double then bid suit should be reserved for hands stronger than this that are afraid of 1s getting passed out when you have game on power. When you need some sort of fit and a 9+ count for game, partner won't be passing 1S, and forcing yourself to double first just because you have a full opener leaves you in awkward situations at high levels after auctions like (1H)-p-(p)-x;(2H)-3D-(P)-? Do you really want to bid 3s here forcing on a 13 count?

 

It is not really that aggressive/restrictive. Remember you're taking some inferences from the auction. If you balance on a 6 count at 1 ♠, RHO probably has less than 5, if LHO (opener) has a decent 16 count, that leaves roughly 13+ for partner to have sitting behind opener. Does that mean you balance with every 6 count? No, especially not if you are VUL. But if you had something like ♠ AK10xx ♥ xx ♦ xxx ♣ xxx, I'd doubt you'd find many people who wouldn't balance 1 ♠.

 

At the 2 level, such as a non-jump 2 of a minor reopen, needs to be a bit stronger more like a 9/10 minimum. Corresponding balancing bids also need to be a bit stronger. So a jump to 3 of a minor ought to be more like a good 14/15 with a good 6 card suit.

 

After (1H)-p-(p)-x;(2H)-3D-(P)-?, if you're bidding 3 ♠, you're showing the 16+ strong overcall and it's non-forcing for partner. If you have the light shapely double, you're passing 3 ♦. If you have an off shape double with a doubleton ♦, you're probably passing 3 ♦ also. In most cases, you need chunky normal takeout double to move.

 

Mostly, balancing is geared toward fighting for the part scores.

 

BTW, the Pavlicek link identified in an earlier post connects to a write up very similar to what I've covered. as usual, it's excellent.

[Cyberyeti]

We play 10-13, bear in mind 3♠ isn't necessarily weak either, but I don't ever recall discussing what that looks like.

[Stephen Tu]

It is not really that aggressive/restrictive. Remember you're taking some inferences from the auction. If you balance on a 6 count at 1 ♠, RHO probably has less than 5, if LHO (opener) has a decent 16 count, that leaves roughly 13+ for partner to have sitting behind opener. Does that mean you balance with every 6 count? No, especially not if you are VUL. But if you had something like ♠ AK10xx ♥ xx ♦ xxx ♣ xxx, I'd doubt you'd find many people who wouldn't balance 1 ♠.

The question is what advantage you are gaining by restricting 1S to less than opening hands as you advocated earlier. Most of us are playing wide range 1S openers, and wide range 1S direct seat overcalls. Why narrow range 7-11 seat balancing 1S? Your post seems to indicate that you have to double with a lot of hands that I would just overcall 1S with, because you have an opening hand. So you double, off-shape 5314 or something, opener rebids hearts, partner bids 3D, now what? You are in terrible contract, if you bid 3S now you say you are showing 16+. If you say partner can't bid diamonds because you are making a lot of off shape doubles just because you have opening hand then you are losing out when you have more normal takeout double shape.

 

I just don't see why you can't go ahead and bid 1s on say a ~8-16 pt range (upper end when only 5 cd suit unsuited for balancing jump); if you have game partner will cue or raise or bid NT or something; with top end you can go on while the bottom end can pass/sign off. You shouldn't miss games if partner can't make any noise, and you avoid excessive doubling on off-shape hands that aren't powerhouses just because you have 12-14 hcp which leads to awkward spots later.