Hesitation after a jump bid

[steve2005]

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1h2sp4sp(think.hesitation%3E)p5dppp]133|100[/hv]

Ok here was the bidding.

EW said there was clear hesitation on the pass by North after edit 4♠. NO STOP CARD ACBL

Clear was wrong there was at most 2 seconds of thought, After jump like this if anything the pass was too quick,

 

Now after the hand EW say they were damaged as N has a rockcrusher that clearly should have taken a bid. While South which i cant remember their exact hand had KQTxxx diamonds 2 small hearts 3 clubs to Q or J and singleton spade. So dont have much.

 

The claim is S must have UI somehow or couldn't have made 5♦ bid

Result was 5♦+1 which was lucky on 3-3 heart break but 5♦ is always there.

 

Should this be rolled back to 4♠?

[Tramticket]

Are stop cards still in use in your jurisdiction? Was it used?

 

Even if stop cards are not in use, there is still a requirement to pause after a jump bid? The normal guidance is around 10 seconds - which can feel like a very long time and players rarely pause for this long. I would only entertain a claim of UI based on a break in tempo if the pause were for significantly longer than 10 seconds. You suggest that the pause was 2 seconds, which I would also consider a break in tempo (too quick) - but not a BIT that suggests bidding on.

 

Based on the facts as presented, I would not adjust.

[pescetom]

EW said there was clear hesitation on the pass by North after 3♠.

 

I assume you mean 4♠ here.

[Cyberyeti]

Are stop cards still in use in your jurisdiction? Was it used?

 

Even if stop cards are not in use, there is still a requirement to pause after a jump bid? The normal guidance is around 10 seconds - which can feel like a very long time and players rarely pause for this long. I would only entertain a claim of UI based on a break in tempo if the pause were for significantly longer than 10 seconds. You suggest that the pause was 2 seconds, which I would also consider a break in tempo (too quick) - but not a BIT that suggests bidding on.

 

Based on the facts as presented, I would not adjust.

 

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

[Tramticket]

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

 

Yes I agree with this. Also, any mannerisms at the time might have given UI and suggested bidding on. But none of this was mentioned in the opening post, hence my response "based on the facts as presented" ...

[FelicityR]

If anything the pass was too quick

 

Bizarre. Quick passes usually indicate no further interest, minimum hands, etc. so bidding 5♦ as South is a gamble. Though it all depends on how 4♠ is interpreted, and the standard of the opposition. Would I bid 5♦ in this auction? No way. But I know a few players who might bid 5♦ given a 3♦ bid (free bid or gf - depending on the methods) on the previous round might have been misinterpreted.

[barmar]

Now after the hand EW say they were damaged as N has a rockcrusher that clearly should have taken a bid. While South which i cant remember their exact hand had KQTxxx diamonds 2 small hearts 3 clubs to Q or J and singleton spade. So dont have much.

1=2=6=3 shape is only 12 cards. That reduces the LTC, which suggests bidding more. :)

[pescetom]

If East (or West) thought there was clearly hesitation then he could have pointed it out at the time, when North passed. If he waits until the end of auction to say so and only his partner agrees with him then it is far from clear that he is right. Although I guess he might have hesitated to point it out at the time for fear of generating UI on his own side.

 

Depends how long that player normally thinks for over a jump, if he normally completely ignores the stop card then it's a BiT.

I agree that a deviation from usual behaviour may transmit UI, but I'm not sure that technically it constitutes a BiT. If his usual behaviour is to ignore the stop card then surely he usually commits a BiT and the time he thinks he does not.

[steve2005]

1=2=6=3 shape is only 12 cards. That reduces the LTC, which suggests bidding more. :)

cant remember hand exactly either had extra club or extra spade. Stop card not used in acbl

[blackshoe]

People keep talking about stop cards. This was ACBL. No stop cards (but LHO of a skip bidder is still required to pause about ten seconds).

 

I would want to see the hands before ruling. And when, exactly, did East point out the alleged BIT?

[weejonnie]

If the claim is "S must have UI somehow or couldn't have made 5♦ bid" I am throwing it out in about -7 seconds.

 

The law states:(16B)

 

3. When a player has substantial reason to believe that an opponent who had a logical

alternative has chosen an action suggested by such information, he should summon the

Director when play ends5.

 

IMHO this is not a substantial reason.

[barmar]

People keep talking about stop cards. This was ACBL. No stop cards

I think that was edited into the OP after people brought up the stop card. I don't think it originally mentioned ACBL.

[blackshoe]

I think that was edited into the OP after people brought up the stop card. I don't think it originally mentioned ACBL.

Maybe not, but the profile information listed under his name in that post lists his location as Hamilton, Canada. Hence, ACBL. Remember, bridge is a game of logic. :-)

[Tramticket]

Maybe not, but the profile information listed under his name in that post lists his location as Hamilton, Canada. Hence, ACBL. Remember, bridge is a game of logic. :-)

 

I am not familiar with bridge in Canada and was not aware that it was part of the ACBL - which I assumed to be just USA. I simply asked the question: "Are stop cards still in use in your jurisdiction? Was it used?" - which I felt was a reasonable question to ask.

 

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

[pescetom]

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

 

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

 

ACBL world

 

Mexico is rather oddly linked to "most of Texas".

[RMB1]

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

 

The ACBL is primarily the zonal body for North America (as in half the continent of the Americas), the equivalent of the European Bridge League.

 

ACBL also has a role as the National Bridge Organisation for the USA, although there are other bodies, and USBF organises selection of USA teams.

 

There are National Bridge Organisations in Canada and Mexico - at least for the purposes of selecting teams.

[Tramticket]

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

 

ACBL world

 

Mexico is rather oddly linked to "most of Texas".

 

The ACBL is primarily the zonal body for North America (as in half the continent of the Americas), the equivalent of the European Bridge League.

 

ACBL also has a role as the National Bridge Organisation for the USA, although there are other bodies, and USBF organises selection of USA teams.

 

There are National Bridge Organisations in Canada and Mexico - at least for the purposes of selecting teams.

 

Thanks - I've learnt something!

[barmar]

I see that Mexico and Puerto Rico are in there too, not Cuba however:

Even if ACBL were just for the US, PR is part of the US (a fact that the rest of the US was reminded of after last year's hurricanes).

[steve2005]

For my interest, why are Canada part of the ACBL?

Canada Mexico and Bermuda are part of the ACBL.

In past have even fielded a joint team for Burmuda bowl but not for a while. why this is so iis more difficult.

[steve2005]

from the director

" I took the hesitation problem to 3 director's and the ACBL help desk.

Although there is supposed to be a delay in bidding after a jump there was agreement that a change in tempo is sufficient to consider the bidding after the change in tempo." So they looked at the bidding most players would not make the bid made which is agreed but...

Does this override

16Ba

Says cant make a call that is demonstrably suggest by the ui

So before you even poll you need to show bid was suggested by tempo. Quick bids mean min hands and suggest a pass.

[Tramticket]

from the director

" I took the hesitation problem to 3 director's and the ACBL help desk.

Although there is supposed to be a delay in bidding after a jump there was agreement that a change in tempo is sufficient to consider the bidding after the change in tempo." So they looked at the bidding most players would not make the bid made which is agreed but...

Does this override

16Ba

Says cant make a call that is demonstrably suggest by the ui

So before you even poll you need to show bid was suggested by tempo. Quick bids mean min hands and suggest a pass.

 

Steve, I am unclear from your opening post and subsequent posts what actually happened? Was the director called and made a ruling which you subsequently questioned? (appealed?). You said that the hesitation was 2 seconds. Is that your assessment or was this agreed by all of the players or otherwise established as the facts by the director?

 

Did the director rule that there was a break in tempo because (a) the player bid too quickly not observing the pause after the jump or (b) this particular player doesn't normally pause after jump bids, so even a two-second pause is hesitation and a break from his/her normal tempo?

[barmar]

Are there really players whose bidding tempo is so consistent that a 2-second difference is a meaningful break?

[blackshoe]

The ACBL predates the WBF by some years. When the WBF was founded, the ACBL controlled bridge in the US, Canada, Mexico, and Bermuda. When the WBF embarked on its "lets get recognized as an Olympic sport" campaign, the ACBL had a problem, because the Olympic Charter says that no national sports organization is permitted to have international responsibilities. So the ACBL created the USBF to serve, at least in theory, as the "national bridge organization" for the United States, while the ACBL kept virtually all of its organization, duties and powers in the US (not to mention the other three countries).

 

Bermuda is, I think, unique, in being both a part of the ACBL and not a part of Zone 2. Some time ago Bermuda opted and petitioned the WBF to move from Zone 2 (North America) to Zone 5 (Caribbean and Central America). The petition was granted. At the same time, Bermuda petitioned the ACBL to remain a Unit of the ACBL (part of District 2, Eastern Canada) so they could continue to hold the lucrative Bermuda Regional. That petition was also granted. So Bermuda is a Unit of the ACBL, but not a member nation of Zone 2.

 

Aren't legal shell games fun? B-)

[Vampyr]

When a SO has issued regulations such that the Stop card is not held by the skip bidder for an appropriate amount of time and is in fact not even used, they have accepted and consented to the fact that tempos after skip bids will be wildly variable. Therefore the clear message is that no matter how long the next bidder takes it shall not be ruled as a BIT.

[pescetom]

When a SO has issued regulations such that the Stop card is not held by the skip bidder for an appropriate amount of time and is in fact not even used, they have accepted and consented to the fact that tempos after skip bids will be wildly variable. Therefore the clear message is that no matter how long the next bidder takes it shall not be ruled as a BIT.

 

The Laws say:

"But Regulating Authorities may require mandatory pauses, as on the first round of the auction, or after a skip-bid warning, or on the first trick."

 

The ACBL Bidding Box Regulations say:

"Use of the Stop card has been discontinued. No verbal or visual skip-bid warning should be used. Following a jump in the bidding, left-hand opponent is obligated to wait approximately 10 seconds (while giving the appearance of studying his hand and not in excess time to determine a choice of bids) before making a call."

 

The "and not in excess time" clause is baffling, but otherwise it is a clear message that doesn't seem to allow wild variation.

If anything you could argue that it is puzzling to beginners, difficult to enforce and open to abuse, just like the Stop Card it replaced.