Dbl or Overcall?

[flytoox]

I am reading Porten's Introductoin to defensive bidding. He siad you should dbl with such a hand after RHO bid 1d:

S: AKXXX

H: QXX

D: XX

C: AJX

 

Do you guys agree with it?

[luis]

I disagree, I don't like doubling with a 5 card major unless the hand is just too strong to bid 1x or 2x. Why? Because first of all pd will not compete with 3 card support unless you bid your 5 card suit. Pd will miss-use the law and compete to 3h on a 4-3 fit or let them play the hand bypassing a 5-3 spade fit.

 

If my suit is a minor I can either double or bid 2m depending on the hand.

 

With 2-5-3-3 I prefer to bid 2h rather than dbl 1s but with 2-3-5-3 I can either double 1s or bid 2d depending on the hand.

 

With 5 spades is when doubling is worst in my opnion your are likely going to be letting them play 2m or 3m without discovering a 5-3 spade fit.

[inquiry]

I am reading Porten's Introductoin to defensive bidding. He siad you should dbl with such a hand after RHO bid 1d:

S: AKXXX

H: QXX

D: XX

C: AJX

 

Do you guys agree with it?

 

No. I not only disagree, I strongly disagree. I would make the simple 1S overcall. But let's make the hand even a bid more in favor of a doube, bu making a small diamond a small heart....

 

S: AKXXX

H: QXXX

D: X

C: AJX

 

Now the double is stand out, right? Nope... I would still bid 1S. While I think the majority of players would bid 1S instead of double with the first hand you showed, I think a huge majority would double with the modification I show with four hearts. I am not trying to convert anyone to the correct way (it is ok with me if all of them bid wrong :-) ).

 

I think you owe it to yourself to read chapter 5 in Robson/Segal's excellent book on "partnership bidding". One of the BBO regulars, Dan Neill has a link to an online version of this out of print book on his webpage at...

http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000/sys/

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

I'm in agreement with Ben/Luis on this one.

Easy 1S overcall

[flytoox]

I am reading Porten's Introductoin to defensive bidding. He siad you should dbl with such a hand after RHO bid 1d:

S: AKXXX

H: QXX

D: XX

C: AJX

 

Do you guys agree with it?

 

No. I not only disagree, I strongly disagree. I would make the simple 1S overcall. But let's make the hand even a bid more in favor of a doube, bu making a small diamond a small heart....

 

S: AKXXX

H: QXXX

D: X

C: AJX

 

Now the double is stand out, right? Nope... I would still bid 1S. While I think the majority of players would bid 1S instead of double with the first hand you showed, I think a huge majority would double with the modification I show with four hearts. I am not trying to convert anyone to the correct way (it is ok with me if all of them bid wrong :-) ).

 

I think you owe it to yourself to read chapter 5 in Robson/Segal's excellent book on "partnership bidding". One of the BBO regulars, Dan Neill has a link to an online version of this out of print book on his webpage at...

http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000/sys/

 

Ben

 

Yes, with the hand u gave, i would dbl, how about with:

S: KJXXX

H: AQX

D: XX

C: KTX

[mishovnbg]

When you must choose between overcall and dbl:

1. Have you normal rebid after dbl? If you havent as in your examples better to overcall.

2. Think partners distribution is balanced, untill opps or partners bids discover something unusual. In same case is also better to overcall, how in your examples.

3. Do you like to play contract or prefer to be dummy? ( I dont mean your skills here ::) ). If you like p to play - dbl. In your examples is better to overcall.

4. What responses after opps pass you expect from your p? If he can pass with xxxx support and side singleton ( like Luis :P ), better to bid dbl with strong hands.

Misho

[lifemonster]

S: AKXXX

H: QXX

D: XX

C: AJX

 

If you double with this, what are you gonna do after

 

1D--(you dbl)-2D or 3D-pass

pass--now what?

 

You are screwed coz clearly you ain't strong enough to bid 3S.

 

Therefore, with this kind of hand, instead of double-then-spades, try spades-then-double, in another word, you are planning:

 

(1D)-1S-(2D or 3D)-pass

pass-dbl

 

which says you have too much to pass and ask pd to do something right, including

1.bid 3H with shortness in spades and a natural biddable suit;

 

2.bid 3S with support, simply competitive;

 

3.pass with shortness in spades plus some defensive value, may including a diamond stack.

 

BTW, I believe that any bidding books written and published before 1980's simply are too old and outdated, and should be thrown away, especially those with a subject line of "introduction to...".

 

Van Porten's book is for the 70's, I think.

 

Try Bergen's.

[flytoox]

 

BTW, I believe that any bidding books written and published before 1980's simply are too old and outdated, and should be thrown away, especially those with a subject line of "introduction to...".

 

hmm, quite right, i should say. I just found this book online and read it with some curiosity.

Van Porten's book is for the 70's, I think.

 

Try Bergen's.

which one do u mean?

 

 

 

[the hog]

I think it is Von den Porten, isn't it?

Not all old books should be discraded. Lawrence's book on overcalls is still highly relevant today.

[lifemonster]

Yes it's Van der Porten.

 

Try Bergen's.

which one do u mean?

All of them.

[flytoox]

ON yesterdays's San Paulo final Campos vs Chagas, Boles(?), sitting east, did dbl with similar hand after north's weak 2d:

S: AXXXX

H: QXX

D: QX

C: AJX

[inquiry]

ON yesterdays's San Paulo final Campos vs Chagas, Boles(?), sitting east, did dbl with similar hand after north's weak 2d:

S: AXXXX

H: QXX

D: QX

C: AJX

 

Over an opening bid of 2D (not 1D), double is right. The reasons for this is that the suit (Axxxx) is not good enough to overcall at the two level. In fact, on the original hand, if the opening bid had been 2D (instead of 1D), I would double as well.

 

Here is a good rule for take out doubles... the lower the level, the MORE SHAPE specific they should be. A double of 1C or 1D should surely be shape specific or a terrific hand too good to risk a simple overcall. The higher the level (after preempts and such), the more liberties you can take with the shape specific nature.

 

Ben

[flytoox]

ON yesterdays's San Paulo final Campos vs Chagas, Boles(?), sitting east, did dbl with similar hand after north's weak 2d:

S: AXXXX

H: QXX

D: QX

C: AJX

 

Over an opening bid of 2D (not 1D), double is right. The reasons for this is that the suit (Axxxx) is not good enough to overcall at the two level. In fact, on the original hand, if the opening bid had been 2D (instead of 1D), I would double as well.

 

Here is a good rule for take out doubles... the lower the level, the MORE SHAPE specific they should be. A double of 1C or 1D should surely be shape specific or a terrific hand too good to risk a simple overcall. The higher the level (after preempts and such), the more liberties you can take with the shape specific nature.

 

Ben

 

Hmm, this makes sense. Thanks a lot.

[Antoine Fourrière]

With a hand about an ace stronger than inquiry's example hand, say

 

S: AKJXX

H: KQXX

D: X

C: AJX

 

I would still prefer 1S to double, because double followed by spades just shows strength and spades, cancelling the support for hearts and clubs, while spades followed by double shows strength (a bit less), spades and support for the other suits.