4th suit bid

[Shugart23]

Playing Canape :

 

Partner opens 1H and is DOUBLED. (Partner promises 4+ Hearts)...I bid 1NT which is a transfer to 2C and then rebid a non-forcing 2D when it comes around to me....Opener now knows I am at least 5-5 in the Minors....Opener can set the contract now by making any Club, Diamond, or Heart bid at any level. Opener can also invite me to game in any of the three known suits by first bidding 2NT (relay to 3C and then making the invite)

 

 

We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...…(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)…..

 

 

Thanks for any suggestions

[tritonium]

I have a suggestion you probably won't like, but it meant to be constructive. Stop playing Canape and switch to Transfer Precision, or at least 2/1.

[PhilG007]

"Canape" went out with the Dodo. Switch to a more modern systemhttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[Shugart23]

I have a suggestion you probably won't like, but it meant to be constructive. Stop playing Canape and switch to Transfer Precision, or at least 2/1.

 

Played transfer super Precision for years......didn't like having to have a 5 card Major to open 1H or 1S so made the switch to 4 card Major Openings about 2 years ago

 

we still play strong Club with transfers, however Canape is much more interesting (and enjoyable) for the hands with less than 16 HCP...there is no going back to 5 card Majors for us ( I have tasted the apple)

[tritonium]

Played transfer super Precision for years......didn't like having to have a 5 card Major to open 1H or 1S so made the switch to 4 card Major Openings about 2 years ago

 

we still play strong Club with transfers, however Canape is much more interesting (and enjoyable) for the hands with less than 16 HCP...there is no going back to 5 card Majors for us ( I have tasted the apple)

 

I believe you have also tasted the Kool Ade.

[GrahamJson]

 

 

We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...…(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)…..

 

 

Thanks for any suggestions

I’m curious as to why you are interested in distinguishing between fast and slow 3S. I’ve no idea what 3S should mean in this auction (a splinter maybe) but it shouldn’t vary with tempo.

[GrahamJson]

Maybe I’ve misunderstood you. Do you mean a jump to 3S as against 2S followed by 3S?

[Shugart23]

I believe you have also tasted the Kool Ade.

 

 

:)….It is a lot of fun to open a 4 card Major headed by a 7 and then watch the opponents squirm because they have A,K 5th...….

[Shugart23]

Maybe I’ve misunderstood you. Do you mean a jump to 3S as against 2S followed by 3S?

 

Yeah....2S or jump to 3S or slow 3S via 2NT relay.....I think , for now, 2S is just to Play.....slow 3S will be invite to 4S....and jump to 3S is just undefined.....(In these sequencers, Opener has 9+ cards in the Majors and Responder showing 10+ cards in the Minors, it is just a mess)

[SelfGovern]

Playing Canape :

 

Partner opens 1H and is DOUBLED. (Partner promises 4+ Hearts)...I bid 1NT which is a transfer to 2C and then rebid a non-forcing 2D when it comes around to me....Opener now knows I am at least 5-5 in the Minors....Opener can set the contract now by making any Club, Diamond, or Heart bid at any level. Opener can also invite me to game in any of the three known suits by first bidding 2NT (relay to 3C and then making the invite)

 

 

We are trying to give reasonable meanings to Opener's bid of 2S or fast and slow 3S...…(Playing canape, it is quite likely Partner has more Spades than Hearts and we have a misfit if she is making one of these bids)…..

 

 

Thanks for any suggestions

 

Just a suggestion -- given what you said above, it seems that after

1H - X - 1N - P

2C - 2D - P

 

You can't make an invitation in clubs. Why not make 3!C now invitational, and 2NT relay to 3!C, allowing responder to pass 3!C and set the contract?

[MrAce]

:)….It is a lot of fun to open a 4 card Major headed by a 7 and then watch the opponents squirm because they have A,K 5th...….

 

It is not much fun when pd opens 1M and they overcall or preempt over it, but you will conveniently skip this part, won't you? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[Shugart23]

It is not much fun when pd opens 1M and they overcall or preempt over it, but you will conveniently skip this part, won't you? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

Haven't had any problem with opponents interference, anymore than anyone else does, especially when they overcall into our longer suit. Then it is even more fun.

 

Opening the weak 4 card Major vs opening the Precision 1D (like we used to), has a preemptive value and messes up the opponent's ability to double and overcall or find the right lead, at times

[nullve]

Playing Canape

1♥ = ?

[Shugart23]

1♥ = ?

 

We use the Rule of 20 (or 19 with a quick trick) in general...less than 16 HCP because then we open strong 1C. 1 Heart open shows 4+ Hearts...almost always 4 with a longer side suit OR 6+ Hearts. (our NT range is 12-15 so 1NT bid could contain 4 or 5 hearts).

The Heart holding can be as weak as holding 2,3,4, and 5 of Hearts

 

It is pretty rare to have exactly 5 Hearts and open 1H (see below)

 

Assuming you have a hand worth opening :

with exactly 5 Hearts and 4 or 5 Diamonds, open 1D

with exactly 5 Hearts and 4 Spades, open 1S

with exactly 5 Hearts and 4+ Clubs, open 2H (gives up the 2H preempt)

with exactly 5 Hearts, balanced, open 1NT if in range

with exactly 5 Hearts, balanced, but less than 12 HCP....pass but can sometimes open 1H only if you have a Spade fragment

with exactly 5 Hearts and a 6+ side suit, open 1H

If 5-5 in the Majors, can open 1H if Spades are superior

[Phil]

Canape is fine. Its not my preference but there's a few good pairs out there that play them.

 

Im also sorry, you've spent a fair amount of time beating them off this morning. I doubt you wanted to know what others thought of.

 

Ill give this some thought.

[Shugart23]

Canape is fine. Its not my preference but there's a few good pairs out there that play them.

 

Im also sorry, you've spent a fair amount of time beating them off this morning. I doubt you wanted to know what others thought of.

 

Ill give this some thought.

 

Precision was getting stale, so we shook things up and have found a rekindled enjoyment of the game and are having great success along the way. The hardest part was changing the thought process and all the new inferences that came along....Took a good 3-6 months before we got comfortable with the rebids...Now, we are pretty good with it

 

I don't think any of the previous posters were particularly out of line and I am happy to discuss with them, but thanks !

[pescetom]

Precision was getting stale, so we shook things up and have found a rekindled enjoyment of the game and are having great success along the way. The hardest part was changing the thought process and all the new inferences that came along....Took a good 3-6 months before we got comfortable with the rebids...Now, we are pretty good with it

 

I don't think any of the previous posters were particularly out of line and I am happy to discuss with them, but thanks !

 

Several pairs in my club still prefer canape' based systems despite being quite capable of playing more modern stuff.

It puts them readily into viable game contracts, and they get by the rest by playing the cards better than most.

[Shugart23]

Several pairs in my club still prefer canape' based systems despite being quite capable of playing more modern stuff.

It puts them readily into viable game contracts, and they get by the rest by playing the cards better than most.

 

yeah, I just got tired of the 1D Precision bid is all.....Started with Ken Rexford's Modified Italian Canape System and modified some of it to fit our methods

[HardVector]

I would think playing canape, that you should probably refuse the transfer and bid 2s immediately. That would probably indicate no desire to play in clubs. Once the transfer is made and accepted, when you now bid 2d I think the spade suit is lost. Pick a minor, or play in nt. 2s should probably be asking about stoppers, 3s should be excitement about a minor.

[Shugart23]

I would think playing canape, that you should probably refuse the transfer and bid 2s immediately. That would probably indicate no desire to play in clubs. Once the transfer is made and accepted, when you now bid 2d I think the spade suit is lost. Pick a minor, or play in nt. 2s should probably be asking about stoppers, 3s should be excitement about a minor.

 

Thanks for the comment...This wont really work for us; accepting the transfer is mandatory (99% of the time). Here is more of our structure when my partner opens 1 of a Major and is doubled:

 

Redouble is what you might expect.

 

If Responder first transfers and then rebids a new suit, Responder shows at least 5-5...Depending upon the order of how the two suits are shown, one is game force and the other is not. If game force, Responder could be 5-4)

 

If Responder has a weak hand with some support for the Opener's Major, Responder can transfer into a suit first, and then bid 2 of the Major. This suggests 1st or 2nd round control of the suit and is suggestive of a defensive lead if Opponents get the contract

 

With good support and game/slam going values, Responder first transfers back into the Major and then bids a new suit...This creates a game force...eg 1H- Double-2D(transfer)-2H-3C

 

Responder can raise Opener's Major to any level and is to Play

 

If Responder is single suited (weak or strong), can transfer first and then Pass (if weak) or then raise the Opener after he has transferred

[HardVector]

I'm familiar with this kind of structure, I'm just not certain it works with canape. The whole problem is that opener is NOT bidding their best suit to start, and if responder takes total control in this manner has no opportunity to show it. As I said before, once you begin this, you just bite the bullet and lose the spade suit. You need to monitor how many bad results you get doing this to determine if you really want to continue using this system.

[Shugart23]

I'm familiar with this kind of structure, I'm just not certain it works with canape. The whole problem is that opener is NOT bidding their best suit to start, and if responder takes total control in this manner has no opportunity to show it. As I said before, once you begin this, you just bite the bullet and lose the spade suit. You need to monitor how many bad results you get doing this to determine if you really want to continue using this system.

 

Your point is valid that Responder is taking control...But Opener is limited to 15 HCP max, so not necessarily a bad thing.. We have decided for now that after Responder has shown the two minors, any suit bid at any level (including Spades) by Opener will be to play. At the moment we are using 2NT relay by Opener to start invitational sequences

 

You are also very correct that there are certain methods that work well with 5 card Major systems just don't work in the Canape system....