Too much to pass?

[luis]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

assuming rho has 5 spades to 2 honors then if partner has 13 or 14 balanced you simply arent going to make 9 tricks if you bid 2N. You need 9 quick winners and you have no source of tricks. This is one of those hands where 25 HCP games go down too often. This is why i rate 2N poorly even though 1N was my choice, regardless of "style". I think a good style is not being in no play contracts.

[Guest Jlall]

Question to the passers: Even if pard reopens with a X, what are you going to do? 2S? Expect him to work this out? It will be hard to have an intelligent auction after passing. Not to mention if pard has a balanced min hes going to pass.

the danger of passing is partner also passing... if he doubles, i pass and lead ♠J... do we have game? i don't know, but if we don't i think defending is better... i really don't like bidding 2nt and i think i'm too weak to double (gf negative).. maybe pass works out badly this time, who knows?

Thats a pretty bold bid, if pard reopens with a X showing shortness I don't think i would want to defend 1S X. Way too much chance of them making it or overtricks since they have so many trumps.

[inquiry]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

I think you can get away with 1NT without a stopper, because parnter, if having game value, will check back without a spade stopper and shortage. Opposite a 2NT call by you, he may have more than enough for game in theory but you can lose five spade tricks off the top.

 

So while any bid works out ok, 2NT I think sets up your for problems more often than not.

 

Ben

[tysen2k]

With NFB: pass

Without NFB: 2♣

 

I really don't think pass is too bad. I play NFB so double is out for me since that should show either 4♥ or GF. I'm neither. 2♣ should also show a better suit for NFB. So for me I think it's pass with 2♦ and 1NT in a close tie for second. They could all be reasonable.

 

Without NFB, I think 2♣ becomes the new winner, but not by much. It shouldn't promise more than 10+ with 4+ cards. That's what I've got even though it isn't pretty.

 

This hand is much weaker than it looks. Totally flat with spread honors.

 

Tysen

[luis]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

I think you can get away with 1NT without a stopper, because parnter, if having game value, will check back without a spade stopper and shortage. Opposite a 2NT call by you, he may have more than enough for game in theory but you can lose five spade tricks off the top.

 

So while any bid works out ok, 2NT I think sets up your for problems more often than not.

 

Ben

There're some problems that I like to face :-)

[Guest Jlall]

I wonder why players that rated 1NT as 10 or 8 rate 2NT as 4 or 5 I think both bids should have very close scorings. If 1NT is 10 and 2NT 8 or 2NT 10 and 1NT 8 is a matter of style but what really doesn't make sense to me is that you can like 1NT and hate 2NT. Look at all the intermediates, JT8 in spades, J9 of hearts, 8 of diamonds, Q98 of clubs to play in no-trump I think the hand is more close to 12 than 11.

I think you can get away with 1NT without a stopper, because parnter, if having game value, will check back without a spade stopper and shortage. Opposite a 2NT call by you, he may have more than enough for game in theory but you can lose five spade tricks off the top.

 

So while any bid works out ok, 2NT I think sets up your for problems more often than not.

 

Ben

Even if you dont have 5 spade losers, consider this dummy:

 

Kx

KQx

Qxxxx

KJx

 

ON this hand assuming the overcaller has AQ A, you cant even make 2N. That is opposite a decent 14. Partner is going to bid game on SO MANY hands over 2N that do not make game it's not even funny. There are 1000 of these hand types. Even if you think the example is unfair, lets give pard spade help, and a trick source! (how generous is that!)

 

Kx

xxx

AQJxx

KJx

 

Indeed many would consider this a 1N opener. And...you arent going to make 3N! oh my. What hands are we catering to with 2N? unbalanced hands? Well if hes unbalanced he will bid over 1N. Say he bids 2D. You can now bid 2H and have a shot at an intelligent auction still. But over 2N with alot of unbalanced hands partner will simply bid 3N especially with long diamonds.

[luke warm]

i sorta agree, justin... with

 

♠ J108

♥ AJ9

♦ K83

♣ Q984

 

opposite your examples:

 

Kx

KQx

Qxxxx

KJx

 

or

 

Kx

xxx

AQJxx

KJx

 

and giving overcaller 5 (or 6) spades, i think we'd do ok at 1♠ x'd if we led spades at every opportunity... but you're right, they could make it :P ....

[inquiry]

i sorta agree, justin... with

 

♠ J108

♥ AJ9

♦ K83

♣ Q984

 

opposite your examples:

 

Kx

KQx

Qxxxx

KJx

 

or

 

Kx

xxx

AQJxx

KJx

 

and giving overcaller 5 (or 6) spades, i think we'd do ok at 1♠ x'd if we led spades at every opportunity... but you're right, they could make it :P ....

First example with six spades they take 5♠, and two aces, 1Sx making. They maybe able to muster the 13th heart for an overtrick.

 

Second example, with six spades, they take 5♠, King of hearts, long heart, and club ACE for an overtrick.

[luke warm]

maybe they would, ben... and maybe we take a spade, 3 hearts, a diamond and 2 clubs, especially if the short trump hand gets no ruffs... overcaller probably does have 6 spades, but could have 5... but your point is taken

[Double !]

Wish this were an "assess the blame" question.

I would assess 100% of the blame on playing strong 1NT openers.

 

Regarding what to bid (or not to bid)

I am leaning toward the underbid of 1NT. I might miss a close game but at least be in the right strain. If partner passes, there's a reasonable possibility that partner has a balanced or semi-balanced minimum. Even with 25 between us the hand might be a race to establish enough tricks before losing too many in 3NT. With shape and/or a stronger hand, partner might just take a second bid over 1NT, at which point I can show some more life.

I don't know if this reasoning is compelling or not, but I suspect that the likelihood of a major error is reduced this way. My decision is predicated on the assumption that partner does not have a balanced/ semi-balanced 14+ to 17.

I really do not enjoy playing strong 1NTs- I do not like them Sam-I-Am

 

DHL

[whereagles]

Why are you worrying about stoppers when an overcall on Hxxxx and a few hcp is perfectly routine these days?

[Chamaco]

To me, close call between 1NT and 2NT.

Without all the intermediates, 1NT would be automatic; with intermediates, probably the hand has to show invitational values.

 

I do not like 2C "per se", it does not really decsribe the hand (yes, 4 clubs but this one is a real FLAT hand), but I admit it does have an advantage of potentially rightsiding the NT contract.

[Gerben42]

I hope you are not suggesting passing and then passing partner's double? You don't have a trump trick!

Is this a stripe tailed ape double to make sure they don't make game (2♠x)?

 

Interesting question: what does

1♦ (1♠) p p X p 1NT / 2NT show? Same as normal with a half-stopper?

[joker_gib]

I hope you are not suggesting passing and then passing partner's double? You don't have a trump trick!

Is this a stripe tailed ape double to make sure they don't make game (2♠x)?

 

Interesting question: what does

1♦ (1♠) p p X p 1NT / 2NT show? Same as normal with a half-stopper?

Hi Gerben,

 

Well, 1NT can also be a stopper and a bal hand <= 5 HCP, no ?

 

Alain

[Poky]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sj108haj9dk83cq984]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1D-1S-?

 

What call do you make and what is the reason?  Is this hand too good to pass?  On a scale of 1-10, rate, please, the following actions:

1. Pass

2. Double

3. 1NT

4. 2S

5. 2D

6. Other?[/hv]

9 - 2♦

7 - Pass

5 - 2♣

3 - 2♠, Dbl

0 - 1NT, 2NT

[Gerben42]

Yes, so 1NT can be a worse hand than a direct 1NT, but 2NT can not be a BETTER hand.

 

I guess this hand can bid Pass and 2NT.

[beatrix45]

:)

Why is bidding NT without a spade stop better than temporizing with 2♣ or doubling without a fourth heart? Would it matter if my spade holding were J62, what about 1096 or 632?

[Winstonm]

This has certainly been an interesting discussion and I admit that it has altered my views, which is the beauty of these kinds of posts - you get input from some really outstanding players whom in real life you would probably never meet.

 

I think Roland said it most succintly: "Why make bridge harder than it is?"

 

My personal list now looks like this:

 

2C - 10

Dbl- 7

2D-5

Pass- 3

2S-2

1N-1

2N-0.5

 

Question for those who pass and bid 1/2 nt: to reopen with a double, partner has shortness in spades, presumably 1 or 2; even if partner has honor doubleton, does one want to suggest a NT contract with the highly suspected 5/6 card suit being led? If I elected to pass, I would think a better call would then be 2S, announcing a maximum pass with no clear-cut action to take.

 

I also would not chatise a 2D call, as this action is an intelligent underbid on this shapeless hand and if it does catch partner with 5/6 diamonds puts us in a much better position to compete. And I am in full agreement that some action must be taken on this hand else we risk being pre-empted out of our socks with a 3S bid on our left.

 

Thanks to all who commented. ;)

 

WinstonM

[Winstonm]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s3hk104daqj32ckj42&w=sk762h532d109764ca&e=saq954hq876dc10765&s=sj108haj9dk85cq983]399|300|Scoring: IMP

I find problems like this occurring too often with a pass.

1D-1S-P-3S

It would seem N/S would be best placed to make the right decision had South began with 2C.[/hv]

[mike777]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ 3 ♥ K104 ♦ AQJ32 ♣ KJ42 ♠ K762 ♥ 532 ♦ 109764 ♣ A ♠ AQ954 ♥ Q876 ♦ [space] ♣ 10765 ♠ J108 ♥ AJ9 ♦ K85 ♣ Q983

I find problems like this occurring too often with a pass. 1D-1S-P-3S It would seem N/S would be best placed to make the right decision had South began with 2C.

Not sure what you mean by your comments here. The bidding by opp is novice level? 3S is weak except in novice world. Where is cuebid by LHO and these opp. should be in 4s.

[Winstonm]

Well, I put the example together in a hurry without much thought :o ...and 4S is too much to handle after the spade lead. Only point I had to make was that passing risks a double partscore swing.

[Guest Jlall]

I don't think that 2C makes bridge easier than 1n :o 2C on Qxxx and a 4333 with a hand not worth an invite (imo) is not really a great descriptive bid. 1N showing 8-11 with a balanced hands seems like the "dont make bridge more difficult than it is" bid. Admittedly it shows a spade stopper and you only have a half stopper, that is the flaw.

[Winstonm]

It is interesting to note, Justin, that 1N is where I started. Originally I felt this bid had some real merit to it. It was about right on the "feel" of what the hand was worth. In fact, that's where the whole post came from. I ran this by some very fine players and got solid "no ways" from them, but I still felt that 1N was not all that bad of call.

 

Although flawed not so much by holding only 4 cards but by my poor shape, 2C still pretty well describes the hand. This sequence I believe in competition is forcing only to 2N or 3 of a minor. The other thing I like about 2C is that it gives partner rebid room without overstating the spade stop. Over 2C, he can bid 2D with 97, KQx, AQ10xx, Kxx whereas he might decide to bid 2N over 1N. Also, if he rebids diamonds we are much better placed if the opponents compete again in spades or hearts.

 

Anyway, it's been an interesting debate. By the way, I used to compete against your dad. He was/is some kind of tough, I can tell you that. :P

 

WinstonM