Opening 1NT with a Five Card Major

[relknes]

System matters a lot, in my opinion.

In a big club or two-way club system it is much easier to get away with allowing 1M or 1N based on opener's judgement. This is one of the subtle benefits of limited openings.

Also, it is easier to get away with if you are playing Standard American than if you are playing 2/1.

With one of my partners (playing 1♣ as 11-13 balanced or any 17+, and 1N as 14-16 balanced) we tend to open the major if we want a lead in the suit, have more aces and kings than quacks, or are at the top of our range. We are more likely to open 1♣ or 1N if we don't want a lead in our suit, have a hand that prefers declaring, or have more losers than our point count would suggest. Also, we are a bit more willing to open spades than hearts.

Playing with another partner (playing Standard American with relatively sound openings) we always open 1M, which is perfectly managable if you are allowed to pass partner's 1N response.

Playing with a different partner (playing 2/1 Game Force) we always open 1N when in range, because otherwise the Forcing NT response would make it impossible to get all our point ranges across.

All of that is a long way of saying that it isn't as simple as "You should always open 1N even with a 5 card major" or "You should always open 1M if you have 5 of them." You have to consider the system as a whole.

[fromageGB]

A simple answer - at IMPs always 1NT. At MPs always the major. Different scoring, different methods, as said by StephenG, but my 1NT is 15/16. I don't think vulnerability matters significantly. What does matter is your strength-defining methods after a 1M open.

[Vampyr]

I have come down on the side of opening 1N with 5332 and 5422 hands (except with 9 cards in majors)

I think it is important to use 3♣ as Puppet Stayman in this scenario, this generally makes sure you are in the right game.

 

I think that ordinary 5-card Stayman is a lot better here than Puppet Stayman; if you end up in NT you will have revealed less about the closed hand. But I suppose that those who play Strong NT worry about rightsiding the hand.

[Shugart23]

A simple answer - at IMPs always 1NT. At MPs always the major. Different scoring, different methods, as said by StephenG, but my 1NT is 15/16. I don't think vulnerability matters significantly. What does matter is your strength-defining methods after a 1M open.

 

why is this so ? (at MP, 1NT white , even down 1, tends to be a top something like 80% of the time)

[fromageGB]

why is this so ? (at MP, 1NT white , even down 1, tends to be a top something like 80% of the time)

If you are 1 down in NT, you are unlikely to be 2 down in spades, as they have the strength and suits to run in NT, while you have length in spades to ruff them with. Both going 1 down is more likely, or spades making. Why else do people bother to transfer to play in 2M?

 

All I can say is that your experience is the complete opposite to mine. I commonly find that whether at game or partscore, playing in a major fit is worth a trick, and while meaningless when converted to IMPS, it is huge in matchpoints. Of course there are hands that make the same number of tricks in both, but these are much fewer in frequency. Just checking at random, the last local club night had 12 hands out of 27 where people were playing in both the major and in NT. Of these, 8 hands had better results in the major, 4 better in NT. That's actual results, not the double dummy.

 

That includes hands where only one pair is in one of the contracts, so it is fairer to restrict it to those with at least two pairs in each. That gave 5 hands, 4 for the major, 1 for NT. Double dummy gave it as 5-0.

[Shugart23]

If you are 1 down in NT, you are unlikely to be 2 down in spades, as they have the strength and suits to run in NT, while you have length in spades to ruff them with. Both going 1 down is more likely, or spades making. Why else do people bother to transfer to play in 2M?

 

All I can say is that your experience is the complete opposite to mine. I commonly find that whether at game or partscore, playing in a major fit is worth a trick, and while meaningless when converted to IMPS, it is huge in matchpoints. Of course there are hands that make the same number of tricks in both, but these are much fewer in frequency. Just checking at random, the last local club night had 12 hands out of 27 where people were playing in both the major and in NT. Of these, 8 hands had better results in the major, 4 better in NT. That's actual results, not the double dummy.

 

That includes hands where only one pair is in one of the contracts, so it is fairer to restrict it to those with at least two pairs in each. That gave 5 hands, 4 for the major, 1 for NT. Double dummy gave it as 5-0.

 

I think we might be talking about different things....I am thinking of the situation where we grab the 1NT bid first and where it plays there.....not higher partial or game bids...I do agree that when my partner opens 1NT and I am weak with a 5 +card Major, I move off the 1NT bid..(if I am strong, we start exploring).…

 

Partner and I actually have an agreement that we will strive to NEVER let opponents play 1NT white against us, if at all possible...My contention is that if we let them have the 1NT bid, we are probably going to get a zero. Conversely (?), I am always happy when the opponents allow me to play 1NT white.....Hence, 5332 hands we open 1NT

 

 

Did anyone in your sample play 1NT ?

[rmnka447]

When playing 15-17 NTs, I open 1 NT with any 15-17 5-3-3-2 hand. I have run across some real experts who choose to open 1 of a major with such hands when they hold only 2 cards in the other major. Their thinking, so far as I can discern, is to avoid being transferred into a 5-2 major fit when a 5-3 fit might exist. If they do open 1 of a major, they will rebid 3 NT over a 2/1 response to show the "strong" NT hand.

 

When playing weak NTs in conjunction with 5 card major openers, I virtually never open 1 NT with a 5 card major. Interestingly, our 1 of a major openers include all the 15-17 5-3-3-2 hands opened 1 NT by the strong NTers. But we've never been aware of any appreciable difference in results from opening in a major versus opening 1 NT. The one sop that we've made is to make a 2 NT rebid over a 2/1 response show 16+ balanced. That simply means we use the simple rebid of 2 of the major as a minimum hand any shape.

[Shugart23]

When playing 15-17 NTs, I open 1 NT with any 15-17 5-3-3-2 hand. I have run across some real experts who choose to open 1 of a major with such hands when they hold only 2 cards in the other major. Their thinking, so far as I can discern, is to avoid being transferred into a 5-2 major fit when a 5-3 fit might exist. If they do open 1 of a major, they will rebid 3 NT over a 2/1 response to show the "strong" NT hand.

 

When playing weak NTs in conjunction with 5 card major openers, I virtually never open 1 NT with a 5 card major. Interestingly, our 1 of a major openers include all the 15-17 5-3-3-2 hands opened 1 NT by the strong NTers. But we've never been aware of any appreciable difference in results from opening in a major versus opening 1 NT. The one sop that we've made is to make a 2 NT rebid over a 2/1 response show 16+ balanced. That simply means we use the simple rebid of 2 of the major as a minimum hand any shape.

 

It would be nice to see some real data for sure.... We used to play really weak NT (10-13) for years. I think 10-13 HCP hands occur something like 33% of the time whilst 15-17 HCP hands occur 3-5% of the times...So ,instead of having a 1NT opening once or twice per night , we had the opportunity to open it throughout the evening. With 5332 and Hearts, for us, it was a no brainer - open 1NT. With 5332 and Spades, not so clear of a choice (for us). We had our escapes and for sure, very occasionally we got smacked around. However, we found that the preemptive value of opening 1NT (with almost any legal distribution) was quite useful in MP.

[fromageGB]

I think we might be talking about different things....I am thinking of the situation where we grab the 1NT bid first and where it plays there.....not higher partial or game bids...I do agree that when my partner opens 1NT and I am weak with a 5 +card Major, I move off the 1NT bid..(if I am strong, we start exploring).…

 

Did anyone in your sample play 1NT ?

I see what you mean. Maybe you want a method where you start off 1NT and if anyone else bids, you take it back, and say "no, start again, I'm opening 1M" ?

 

On that night there was only one hand where there were contracts both in 1NT and 2M. I opened 1♠ on a 5332 14 count, partner replied a forcing NT and we ended in 2♠. All hands played by South, the spade players made 9 or 10, the NT players made 8. Of course not a scientific sample.

[Shugart23]

I see what you mean. Maybe you want a method where you start off 1NT and if anyone else bids, you take it back, and say "no, start again, I'm opening 1M" ?

 

On that night there was only one hand where there were contracts both in 1NT and 2M. I opened 1♠ on a 5332 14 count, partner replied a forcing NT and we ended in 2♠. All hands played by South, the spade players made 9 or 10, the NT players made 8. Of course not a scientific sample.

 

Partner and I do have an agreement where if bidding goes 1S-2S-3S...? I am allowed to go back to 2S and decline the invitation