Bots gone Wild

[kenberg]

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

 

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

 

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.

 

You have made it clear that "appreciate" is being used sarcastically. That's ok, I can handle it.

 

I mentioned that there are some issues here that partnerships might want to discuss. As Helene remarks, many are part of standard bidding. or at least what I, and she, think of as standard bidding. For example, after 1D-1H-2NT I would bid 3D with the North hand whether I were playing with a regular partner or with a first time pick up. It is a natural forcing bid showing diamonds. The hand does make 12 tricks in diamonds and if we are gong to get to this slam then showing diamond support is essential. And, if there is not a slam, it might well be that 4H or 5D makes while 3NT does not. So 3D seems like a 100% choice to me. After 3D, opener can bid 3H if he has three hearts. He has denied four hearts with his 2NT, he has promised 2 or 3, if he has 3 he bids 3H, if he has 2 he does something else. Bidding 3NT over 3D shows lack of interest in a diamond slam.

 

 

Now I will go to some things where not everyone does things the same way.

 

Now let's look at the situation with spades after 1m-1H-2NT. Surely responder can have four spades so the important question is whether opener can also have four spades. I have been playing quite a bit with the Gibs lately and I am pretty sure that they play that indeed opener can have four spades. You have the hand records so you can click on the 2NT call and see if it allows for opener to have four spades. I think, but I am not sure, it will. So if opener and responder each can have four spades then this must be dealt with. The obvious way to do that is to have 1m-1H-2NT-3S to show four spades. I like simple approaches and so that's what I use if discussed, and probably what I would do if not discussed. Opener has shown 18 or 19 points so the 3S bid does not require the usual values for the reverse.

Now after 1m-1H-2NT it is true that responder might have five hearts and four spades. How to deal with that? My own preference, still in KISS mode, is for responder to bid 3H. We do not really need this to show 6 cards, here is why: The 2NT call shows at least two hearts. No, you didn't have two hearts but the 2NT does show 2 or 3 hearts. So if responder has six, he is confident of an 8 card fit. Over responder's 3H opener can raise to 4H if he has 3, or he can bid 3S if he has four of them, or he can bid 3NT if he has two hearts and at most three spades.

 

Playing as above, then 1m-1H-2NT-3H has to be forcing. This is a slight drawback, but it seldom is really a problem, especially if the pair is playing weak jump shifts (Gib doesn't play WJS). Playing weak jump shifts if responder has six hearts and a hand where he would want to get out in 3H after 1m-1H-2NT then in fact the auction probably began 1m-2H. And if responder has only five hearts it is far from clear that after 1m-1H-2NT he wants to get out in 3H.

 

As mentioned, not everyone would agree with what I say above. Everyone I know would bid 3D with the actual N hand after 1D-1H-2NT, that's not where I expect disagreement, but I am sure there would be disagreement about what to do after 1D-1H-2NT with five hearts and four spades. I play somewhat casually and so I see simple and natural as the best way for infrequent situations. 1D-1H-2NT-3D shows diamonds, 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows spades, 1D-1H-2NT-3H asks partner to bid 4H with 3 hearts, to bid 3S with four spades, and to bid 3NT with neither. Most of the time this works fine. If I play in the Bermuda Bowl I will use something more advanced.

 

 

Incidentally, if you want to test your belief that the bot would have done the same had you bid 2S instead of 2NT you can do that. I have done such things. I forget the details but if you rent a bot for the day you can start a table, import a hand, seat yourself and three bots, and try it out. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write down the details. I have done it, it was interesting, but I forget exactly how. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write out just how to do it.I am confident it would begin 1D-1H-2S-3D. I strongly expect that the bots would reach 6D, but I would not want to stake my life on it.

[virgosrock]

You have made it clear that "appreciate" is being used sarcastically. That's ok, I can handle it.

 

I mentioned that there are some issues here that partnerships might want to discuss. As Helene remarks, many are part of standard bidding. or at least what I, and she, think of as standard bidding. For example, after 1D-1H-2NT I would bid 3D with the North hand whether I were playing with a regular partner or with a first time pick up. It is a natural forcing bid showing diamonds. The hand does make 12 tricks in diamonds and if we are gong to get to this slam then showing diamond support is essential. And, if there is not a slam, it might well be that 4H or 5D makes while 3NT does not. So 3D seems like a 100% choice to me. After 3D, opener can bid 3H if he has three hearts. He has denied four hearts with his 2NT, he has promised 2 or 3, if he has 3 he bids 3H, if he has 2 he does something else. Bidding 3NT over 3D shows lack of interest in a diamond slam.

 

 

Now I will go to some things where not everyone does things the same way.

 

Now let's look at the situation with spades after 1m-1H-2NT. Surely responder can have four spades so the important question is whether opener can also have four spades. I have been playing quite a bit with the Gibs lately and I am pretty sure that they play that indeed opener can have four spades. You have the hand records so you can click on the 2NT call and see if it allows for opener to have four spades. I think, but I am not sure, it will. So if opener and responder each can have four spades then this must be dealt with. The obvious way to do that is to have 1m-1H-2NT-3S to show four spades. I like simple approaches and so that's what I use if discussed, and probably what I would do if not discussed. Opener has shown 18 or 19 points so the 3S bid does not require the usual values for the reverse.

Now after 1m-1H-2NT it is true that responder might have five hearts and four spades. How to deal with that? My own preference, still in KISS mode, is for responder to bid 3H. We do not really need this to show 6 cards, here is why: The 2NT call shows at least two hearts. No, you didn't have two hearts but the 2NT does show 2 or 3 hearts. So if responder has six, he is confident of an 8 card fit. Over responder's 3H opener can raise to 4H if he has 3, or he can bid 3S if he has four of them, or he can bid 3NT if he has two hearts and at most three spades.

 

Playing as above, then 1m-1H-2NT-3H has to be forcing. This is a slight drawback, but it seldom is really a problem, especially if the pair is playing weak jump shifts (Gib doesn't play WJS). Playing weak jump shifts if responder has six hearts and a hand where he would want to get out in 3H after 1m-1H-2NT then in fact the auction probably began 1m-2H. And if responder has only five hearts it is far from clear that after 1m-1H-2NT he wants to get out in 3H.

 

As mentioned, not everyone would agree with what I say above. Everyone I know would bid 3D with the actual N hand after 1D-1H-2NT, that's not where I expect disagreement, but I am sure there would be disagreement about what to do after 1D-1H-2NT with five hearts and four spades. I play somewhat casually and so I see simple and natural as the best way for infrequent situations. 1D-1H-2NT-3D shows diamonds, 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows spades, 1D-1H-2NT-3H asks partner to bid 4H with 3 hearts, to bid 3S with four spades, and to bid 3NT with neither. Most of the time this works fine. If I play in the Bermuda Bowl I will use something more advanced.

 

 

Incidentally, if you want to test your belief that the bot would have done the same had you bid 2S instead of 2NT you can do that. I have done such things. I forget the details but if you rent a bot for the day you can start a table, import a hand, seat yourself and three bots, and try it out. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write down the details. I have done it, it was interesting, but I forget exactly how. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write out just how to do it.I am confident it would begin 1D-1H-2S-3D. I strongly expect that the bots would reach 6D, but I would not want to stake my life on it.

 

Hi Dlittmann

 

This sequence happened today. It is "similar" and illustrated GUBBO's "thinking".

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?lin=pn%7CVirgosRock%2Cname_withheld%2CRobotN%2CRobotE%7Cst%7C%7Cmd%7C1S7JKAH9AD4C349JKA%2CS35689TH247D29KCQ%2CS2QH8TJD3TQAC2678%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard+15%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor+suit+opening+--+3%2B+%21C%3B+11-21+HCP%3B+%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7C2-4+%21C%3B+2-4+%21D%3B+2-3+%21H%3B+2-3+%21S%3B+6-10+HCP%3B+7%2B+total+points+%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Can%7COpener+reverse+--+5%2B+%21C%3B+4%2B+%21S%3B+21-+HCP%3B%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7C3-4+%21C%3B+2-4+%21D%3B+2-3+%21H%3B+2-3+%21S%3B+6-10+HCP%3B+7%2B+total+points+%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7C5%2B+%21C%3B+3%2B+%21H%3B+4%2B+%21S%3B+21-+HCP%3B+18-22+tota%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7C3-4+%21C%3B+2-4+%21D%3B+2-3+%21H%3B+2-3+%21S%3B+9-10+HCP+%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6C%7Can%7C5%2B+%21C%3B+3%2B+%21H%3B+4%2B+%21S%3B+21-+HCP%3B+22+total+p%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpg%7C%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpg%7C%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpg%7C%7Cmc%7C13%7C%0A%0A]399|300[/hv]

 

I could have opened 2C but things get really hairy after 2C-2D-3C. Not sure why I bid 3H but what the heck. Just wanted some info and I know GUBBO does not have 4H.

 

Just an example.

 

vrock