Bots gone Wild

[dlittmann]

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[helene_t]

Hi Dlittmann, welcome to the forum!

 

It judged that 4♥ plays better than 3NT. All diamond bids from then on (apparently not 7♦) were cue bids.

 

You might have been able to avoid this by making the normal 2NT 2♠ rebid instead of the 2NT rebid. Otherwise you just have to pass 4♥.

 

Edit: thanks, Ahydra

Edited May 29, 2018 by helene_t

[ahydra]

You might have been able to avoid this by making the normal 2NT rebid instead of the 2NT rebid. Otherwise you just have to pass 4♥.

 

I assume you mean 2S rather than 2NT?

 

To the OP:

- just FYI there is a "GIB robot discussion" where crazy GIB bids/plays (plus the occasional good one) should be posted. The BBO staff who work on GIB monitor that forum and occasionally make changes to the robots based on the feedback.

- with bots, you can hover over a bid before making it to see what it means. A lot of the time a bid does not mean to the robot what you think it would mean to a human partner.

 

ahydra

[smerriman]

From GIB's perspective:

 

My partner showed a balanced hand with 18-19 points, despite having a singleton heart and 20 HCP! After I signed off in 4♥, he then cuebid his way to a grand slam! By the time it got to the 7 level I assumed we must have had a misunderstanding and gave up :)

 

Who has programmed these humans to go off the rails like this!

 

(Just some lighthearted fun :) 2♠ is the normal rebid.)

[dlittmann]

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[kenberg]

I have often thought the bots sit around drinking electronic martinis discussing the humans. It has been noted that 2S is a more normal rebid for opener. If for some reason I instead choose 2NT then over partner's 3D I would definitely be thinking of a diamond slam. To my mind, 3S over 3D accepts diamonds. I am not sure if the bots play that way but even of they don't 3S seems better than 3NT. After the 3D, a diamond slam sure seems likely.

 

I have noticed that bots sometimes get extremely optimistic about key cards. Here is a favorite (you will see why):http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=kenberg&s=SAQ862HKDA86CKQ98&wn=Robot&w=SJ97H98543D42CJ54&nn=Robot&n=SKT543HQT7DQT75C7&en=Robot&e=SHAJ62DKJ93CAT632&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P4S(Preemptive%20raise%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%208-%20HCP%3B%204+%20total%20points)D(Takeout%20double%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%2016+%20total%20points)5D(Cue%20bid%20--%201+%20%21C%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2021%20HCP%3B%20no%20%21CA%3B%20%21DA%3B%2022%20total%20points%3B%20forcing)P6S(5+%20%21S%3B%208-%20HCP%3B%2010+%20total%20points)PPP&p=H4H7HJHKSAS9S3H2S8S7STC2C7CAC9C4HASQH9HTCKC5D5C6CQCJD7C3S6SJSKD9HQH6D6H8S5D3S2H5S4CTD8D4DTDJDAD2C8H3DQDK

[smerriman]

Also - I'm not agreeing that a 2S bid is proper here - the bot has already denied a 4 card spade suit with the 1H bid following a pass. There is no possibility of the bot using a responder reverse to show opening points - the max it can have is 10-12 (and likely 9 or less based on the bidding).

Firstly, bidding 1♥ does not deny 4 spades.

 

Secondly, the purpose of reversing into spades isn't (just) to find a spade fit. It's to show your strength; you are much too strong for 2NT - all you need is Qxxx of spades and Axxx of hearts and you should be in slam, not signing off in game like you're guaranteed to after 2NT. In this case, it would get you to an easy 6♦.

 

Additionally, the bot knew there was at a minimum a 5-3 diamond fit, with at best a 5-2 heart fit. Preference for a 4H game with those lousy hearts in a 5-2 vs. a known 8 card fit is a terrible programming error.

 

Were you playing IMPs or MPs?

 

If IMPs, opposite a balanced 18-19 count with exactly 2 hearts, 4♥ is a far superior spot to either 3NT or 4♦.

 

If MPs, it's a bit closer, but with those heart honours (and the terrible diamonds) 4♥ is still the best spot based on simulations.

[MrAce]

You think this is bots gone wild? http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif

 

Check this, happened today.

 

http://www.bridgebas...246#entry952246

[steve2005]

First off - the 4H bid promised a 6th heart, the 5 heart bid a 6+ heart, it had already promised at least 4 diamonds. By every system I know of - especially with that hand, the 3NT and the 5D bids were shut-down bids, the 6D was a second retreat from hearts.

Your 2N promises 2♥

Often 3N is not a shutout bid. Though Gib as usual is bidding on air.

When i was a beginner (20 mp) I pulled a life master's 3N to 4S.

I was told 3N ends all auctions in no uncertain terms..

4S was a top 420 3N made 400 and I knew it was likely going to be a top. Apparently life masters know didley!

[johnu]

GIB had a 6th sense that you didn't like hearts and successfully stopped bidding hearts at the 6 level. Well done GIB. Sometimes GIB will continue bidding hearts until the 7 level so you got a little lucky.

[virgosrock]

This bid happened today:

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sak74h4dakq98ca93&w=st865hk987djcqjt4&n=sq2hqjt63d76432c7&e=sj93ha52dt5ck8652&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1dp1hp2np3dp3np4hp5dp5hp6dp6hp7dppp]399|300[/hv]

 

My hand was South - 3 Bots in a tournament

Now, All bidding is natural - I'm trying to understand what set the bot off for this bidding sequence - it literally went insane.

 

 

First off - the 4H bid promised a 6th heart, the 5 heart bid a 6+ heart, it had already promised at least 4 diamonds. By every system I know of - especially with that hand, the 3NT and the 5D bids were shut-down bids, the 6D was a second retreat from hearts.

 

 

Who has programmed these bots to go off the rails like this?

 

It is quite rare but I am with GUBBO (Ginsberg's Untelligent Bridgeplayer on BBO) on this one.

1d-1h-2S. now most likely it bids 2NT showing it has a poor hand. maybe someone can confirm this. or it bids 3d though that is positive.

1d-1h-2s-2nt-3c showing your shape. at this point up in the air what GUBBO does. possibly 3D.

OR

1d-1h-2s-3D positive with support and you are off to the races.

 

In this case, sorry, 0% blame on GUBBO.

 

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

It is quite rare but I am with GUBBO (Ginsberg's Untelligent Bridgeplayer on BBO) on this one.

1d-1h-2S. now most likely it bids 2NT showing it has a poor hand. maybe someone can confirm this. or it bids 3d though that is positive.

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.

This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.

 

 

To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

 

[virgosrock]

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.

This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.

 

 

To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

 

thanks for the 2 NT clarification. I just wasn't 100% sure. I seemed to recall once it did respond 2NT in a similar auction and blurb said "weak". But am not 100% sure. I recall being surprised since I thought likewise re 2NT.

 

vrock

[kenberg]

Even were I to use a 2S rebid - the Bot's actions were still unexplainable - with a 5 card suit and lousy points, and then a return to my initial suit. Especially when you mouse over the bids and it keeps saying that the bid means progressively longer hearts, which it obviously did not have. Additionally, the bot knew there was at a minimum a 5-3 diamond fit, with at best a 5-2 heart fit. Preference for a 4H game with those lousy hearts in a 5-2 vs. a known 8 card fit is a terrible programming error.

 

 

Also - I'm not agreeing that a 2S bid is proper here - the bot has already denied a 4 card spade suit with the 1H bid following a pass. There is no possibility of the bot using a responder reverse to show opening points - the max it can have is 10-12 (and likely 9 or less based on the bidding).

 

 

There are many points of discussion with this hand.

 

1. Gib (or a human) knows that you have at least four diamonds. I am assuming you would open a 3 card diamond suit only when your shape is 4=4=3=2. I am pretty sure that this is the Gib style. After 1D-1H-2NT you do not have that shape so you have 4+ diamonds.

 

2. Gib's 3D is reasonable based on the view that playing in a suit might be right.. Moreover, with his five diamonds and stiff club, playing in 6D might be right, and it is. So 3D is fine.

 

3. As mentioned before, I don't understand your 3NT. Partner has suggested that a suit contract might be better than a NT contract. If I had the hand you have, I would be strongly inclined to listen to my partner on this.

 

4. 1D-1H-2NT is passable. That's a pretty good hand to be making a passable call.

 

5. As has been mentioned, a jumps shift rebid of 2S is not the same as a reverse bid such as 1D-1S-2H. The 2S jump shift (into a suit) is game-forcing, the reverse is strong and forcing for one round but not game forcing. 1D-1H-2NT is not forcing at all (as most, I believe including the bots, play).

 

6. The auction 1D -1H does not preclude four spades in responder's hand, the auction 1D-1H-2NT-3D probably does unless there are artificial agreements to the contrary. As many of us play, 1D-1H-2NT also does not preclude four spades in opener's hand. Thus we need a way to find the spade fit if it exists, and I play that 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows four spades, simply offering a choice of games. So the objection, my objection, to the 2NT rebid is not that you might miss a spade fit but rather that it mis-describes both your shape (you need 2 or 3 hearts) and your strength (your hand is too strong for this passable bid).

 

So there are many opportunities here for discussion with a partner. Of course bots will not be listening. But I might give this hand to a live partner and ask him how he thinks the auction should go to get to 6D. Surely 1D-1H-2S-3D looks like a good start.

 

However, after the passable 2NT and the discouraging 3NT, I agree that partner could let it be in 5D, and if not that then in 6D. Bots get excited sometimes..

[virgosrock]

There are many points of discussion with this hand.

 

1. Gib (or a human) knows that you have at least four diamonds. I am assuming you would open a 3 card diamond suit only when your shape is 4=4=3=2. I am pretty sure that this is the Gib style. After 1D-1H-2NT you do not have that shape so you have 4+ diamonds.

 

2. Gib's 3D is reasonable based on the view that playing in a suit might be right.. Moreover, with his five diamonds and stiff club, playing in 6D might be right, and it is. So 3D is fine.

 

3. As mentioned before, I don't understand your 3NT. Partner has suggested that a suit contract might be better than a NT contract. If I had the hand you have, I would be strongly inclined to listen to my partner on this.

 

4. 1D-1H-2NT is passable. That's a pretty good hand to be making a passable call.

 

5. As has been mentioned, a jumps shift rebid of 2S is not the same as a reverse bid such as 1D-1S-2H. The 2S jump shift (into a suit) is game-forcing, the reverse is strong and forcing for one round but not game forcing. 1D-1H-2NT is not forcing at all (as most, I believe including the bots, play).

 

6. The auction 1D -1H does not preclude four spades in responder's hand, the auction 1D-1H-2NT-3D probably does unless there are artificial agreements to the contrary. As many of us play, 1D-1H-2NT also does not preclude four spades in opener's hand. Thus we need a way to find the spade fit if it exists, and I play that 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows four spades, simply offering a choice of games. So the objection, my objection, to the 2NT rebid is not that you might miss a spade fit but rather that it mis-describes both your shape (you need 2 or 3 hearts) and your strength (your hand is too strong for this passable bid).

 

So there are many opportunities here for discussion with a partner. Of course bots will not be listening. But I might give this hand to a live partner and ask him how he thinks the auction should go to get to 6D. Surely 1D-1H-2S-3D looks like a good start.

 

Even if one thinks GUBBO has denied 4S - not sure why one would think thus - it is a good bid to show strength and distribution. Immediately shows 5+D and 4+S for sure and GF strength.

For all you know GUBBO has 6 clubs. And you need GUBBO to show d support.

 

vrock

 

vrock

[kenberg]

Even if one thinks GUBBO has denied 4S - not sure why one would think thus - it is a good bid to show strength and distribution. Immediately shows 5+D and 4+S for sure and GF strength.

For all you know GUBBO has 6 clubs. And you need GUBBO to show d support.

 

vrock

 

vrock

 

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else? :)

[virgosrock]

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else? :)

 

haha Ken

 

vrock

[dlittmann]

With std bidding, 2S is a GF jump shift, there is not really any need for "negative" because you are in a GF no matter what you do. So there is no need for North to bid a misdescriptive 2nt with zilch in clubs, it can just bid 3D directly.

This is not at all like 1c-1s-2H, where 2nt is a negative, because the min for a reverse is a Q to a K lighter than a jump shift depending on agreements, and you want a way to sign off in a partial.

 

 

To OP: I don't know why you think 1h deny 4cd S. North can be 4-4, 4-5, 4-6 in majors and respond 1h.

 

 

I'm not sure where you think a passed hand by partner is going to give you a reverse to show a 4H/4S hand - but that would be the bid if it went:

 

N:P E:P S:1D W:P N:(already passed, less than 12 points here) 1H E:P S:2NT (or 2S) (Reverse showing 18+ HCP) W:P N:3S (in an opening sequence, unpassed this is a 13+ responder hand, already denied having 13+ points)

 

But hey, if ya'll swear up and down ya'll wouldn't be pissed at partner using a responder reverse with 7 HCP, let that system work for you - I've been yelled at WAY too many times for doing exactly that by too many very high ranked players.

[dlittmann]

Or to put it another way, you bid 2S because why on earth would you do anything else? :)

 

Since when would that show 5/4? It shows 4/4 in every book I've ever read, and could be 3/4 depending on how your partnership opens 4-3-3-3 hands with 18-19 points.

[dlittmann]

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

 

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

 

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.

[Stephen Tu]

I'm not sure where you think a passed hand by partner is going to give you a reverse to show a 4H/4S hand - but that would be the bid if it went:

What do you think responder is supposed to bid with Axxx Kxxx xxx xx or Axxx Kxxxx x xxx in response to 1D?

 

You seem to be massively confused about how standard bidding works. Responder, with 4-4/4-5/4-6 in the majors, is always supposed to bid 1H first, whether a passed hand or not. He is not expecting to reverse into spades, except, perhaps in the case that opener bids 2nt showing extra values. He only expects to support spades if opener bids 1S or 2S instead of supporting hearts.

How this normally works (if responder is a passed hand, just ignore possibility of responder forcing game unless opener has shown extras) :

• case 1: opener raises 1H to 2H. Responder passes or invites as appropriate. With a min you play 2H. With more, with 4cd spades and 4hearts only, responder might try 2s in case opener's style is to raise with 4351 minimums (some people prefer 1S with this, others prefer 2H), which can uncover the spade fit. Or you just play 3H or 4H, or 2nt/3nt if responder offers and opener is allowed to raise on 3 cd hearts.
• case 2: opener raises 1H to 3H or 4H, or some artificial bid showing a very strong hand with a 4+ cd heart fit. You play in hearts at some level.
• case 3: opener bids 1S. Now you find your spades, opener has 4 spades but not 4H. Responder raises to some level of spades, 2s/3s/4s, or if unpassed hand and slam aspirations may employ 4th suit forcing or xyz to set spades as trumps in a forcing manner.
• case 4: opener bids 1nt. There are two styles here. In style 1, opener denies 4 cd spades. So now you don't have to worry about missing spade fit, you can use gadget to find 5-3 heart fit if have game aspirations. If you are weak you just pass 1nt. In another style, opener always bids 1nt with balanced hands and can still have 4 cd spades. In the other style, if responder is min you miss your 4-4 spade fit, oh well. If responder is stronger, they can use NMF/checkback/xynt/or whatever to find 4-4 spades. In some schemes that allow opener to conceal spades, the sequence 1m-1h-1nt-2s shows specifically 4-4 and invitational values, nf (so worst case opener rebids 2nt, with invitational values hopefully this is still making).
• case 5: opener rebids or jump rebids his suit: opener denies spades so you no longer worry about finding 4-4 fit.
• case 6: opener rebids in a lower ranking suit (1d-1h-2c): opener denies spades, with a min you pass or preference to 2d, or 2H with 4-6, again you don't worry about finding spades.
• case 7: opener reverses (1c-1h-2d): again opener denies spades so you don't worry about 4-4 spade fit.
• case 8: opener rebids 2nt. In most styles this does NOT deny 4 cd spades. So here, and only here, by agreement will a weak responder (but strong enough for game opposite 18-19, i.e. 7 count or so) bid 3S to find a 4-4 spade fit. You have to differentiate between 4=5 in the majors and 4=4 in the majors. It's arbitrary, usually one of these bids 1d-1h-2nt-3s, while the other bids 1d-1h-2nt-(3c/3d, whichever is used as an artificial checkback for major fits).
• case 9: opener jump shifts into spades, showing spades and a GF, and unbalanced, responder raise spades and off you go.

N:P E:P S:1D W:P N:(already passed, less than 12 points here) 1H E:P S:2NT (or 2S) (Reverse showing 18+ HCP) W:P N:3S (in an opening sequence, unpassed this is a 13+ responder hand, already denied having 13+ points)

If opener rebids 2nt, you don't need 13+ for responder to reverse into spades. 7+ is enough, because 18+7 is 25; if opener doesn't have spade fit will bid 3nt and you are not too high.

 

Reverse by responder only promises 13+ (or in a few specific cases, inv+) values if opener can be MINIMUM. Opener who rebid 2nt relieves responder of that necessity.

You also don't need opening values to reverse if opener jumps in his own suit showing extras; i.e. 1c-1h-3c-3s, you might bid this way with 9/10+ and no stop in diamonds, hoping for opener to bid 3nt with diamonds stopped, else might support hearts or rebid clubs, after which you will decide what the next best move is.

 

But hey, if ya'll swear up and down ya'll wouldn't be pissed at partner using a responder reverse with 7 HCP, let that system work for you - I've been yelled at WAY too many times for doing exactly that by too many very high ranked players.

You have sequences confused. You shouldn't reverse as responder (e.g. 1d-1h-2d-2s) with minimum values if opener can be MINIMUM, rebidding their suit cheaply, rebidding 1nt, bidding a new suit at the 1 level, rebidding in a lower ranking suit. That kind of thing requires a strong hand. But reversing when opener has shown enough extra that you are fine to going game is a completely separate matter.

It's absolutely standard to bid 1h with 4-4 in the majors. The expectation is up the line bidding; opener either fits hearts or not, with a min most people bid 1s if no heart fit and you find the spade fit. If opener shows a min and denies spades, by rebidding their suit, or 1nt playing the denies spades style, RESPONDER THEN IGNORES THE SPADES LATER. With a min responder will pass opener's min rebid, and no major fit has been lost.

[Stephen Tu]

Since when would that show 5/4? It shows 4/4 in every book I've ever read, and could be 3/4 depending on how your partnership opens 4-3-3-3 hands with 18-19 points.

For most people, 1d-1h-2s promises 4S 5+D unless exactly 4=1=4=4 shape and 19+ HCP. Because balanced hand would always rebid 2nt. Also, this sequence is considered a "jump shift", not a "reverse". That's because you have a choice of 1s and 2s to show spades. Reverses by definition are *non-jumps* into a new suit, in an inconvenient order forcing partner if he wants to support your first suit to bid at the 3 level. Jump shifts are usually played as GF, reverses by opener not. Reverses by responder are GF (but as noted in previous post, you don't need as much to GF if opener has shown significant extras).

 

With 4333 18-19, 99% of natural bidders open 1c and rebid 2nt. With 4342/4243, 18-19, open 1d and rebid 2nt (there are a few good players like awm who prefer to bid 1s on these, with 2nt denying spades, but it's a small minority who do this).

 

[Stephen Tu]

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

Was this MP or IMPS? I think it's not completely unreasonable to simulate that hearts in a 5-2 outscores 3nt on average at MP. And at MP you really want to play in hearts not diamonds if not bidding slam, and hearts is playable. It rates to be a good spot if you have a heart card 9 or higher. It's true the auction went off the rails after 4H; the problem is it thinks 4H is a signoff and that you are never supposed to bid over that, playing North for 6-4 or something like that. Probably 5d should be redefined as 2H/6d or 2H/5D instead of cue bid, it's an auction that wasn't anticipated to exist.

 

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S.

No, it will pass after 1d-1h-2s-3d-3nt.

 

What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

That's a debatable style issue. Diamonds could well play better than 3nt, it's not unreasonable to bring them into play.

 

[virgosrock]

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

 

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

 

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.

 

no chastisement intended by me. perhaps the system you are used to is different.GUBBO system is what most in this thread have quoted.

 

vrock

[helene_t]

Hi Dlittmann,

 

I appreciate that you don't agree with the robot's choices in this auction and the style it has been programmed to play. It may well be that you play different styles with your regular human partners and that it is therefore frustrating to play with GIB.

 

However: This is the way GIB works, and GIB has zero ability to adapt to your style so you have to adapt to its style.

 

In this case, as you can read from the comments of several very experienced 2/1 players in this thread, GIBs style and choices are completely normal. That doesn't mean that they are best: you can agree to play differently with your regular partners. But it may be useful for you to learn that in this case, the GIB style is also roughly what you should expect from an advanced human partner, if you just agreed with them to play "vanilla 2/1" or some such.

 

In summary:

 

- 1♥ doesn't deny four spades. This is universal in every natural bidding system I have ever heard of.

- The 2NT rebid shows a balanced hand with 18-19 points. 2-3 hearts, 2-4 spades. While it is slightly differently defined in some exotic styles, this is nearly universal. The hand you held here certainly bids 2♠.

- 3♦ is normal with this hand in mainstream methods although some will judge just to look for a hearts fit forgetting about the diamonds. But 3♦ certainly isn't a misbid.

- 4♥ is just to play. Since responder is captain here, opener is expected to pass it. Opener bidding on after this is therefore confusing and may lead to misunderstandings.