What does this double mean?

[gordh]

I suspect 1/6/5/1 and will bid 4s like I've got them, and Sos xx if the x shows up, trading a 20% for a bottom. I hate bridge and golf some days.wondering about vul. This will not jeopardize our partnership, sometimes (rarely) we are fallible.\

[GrahamJson]

Hmm. It seems that most here think that the double shows something like a 4045 hand with insufficient values to open. It seems to me that to double on such a hand, risking playing at the five level with no guarantee of a fit, is somewhat desperate. Surely it is more likely that partner holds a major-minor two suiter, something like KQxxx x x QJxxxx. If so, Bidding 5D, as many here suggest, would be a disaster. As I previously suggested, 4NT; pick a minor looks best. The worst that could happen is that you end up in a 44 club fit instead of a 54 diamond fit. And even that could be ok, with the fifth diamond providing a discard.

 

As for the double being for penalties, that seems most unlikely. What hand could have two or three trump tricks plus an outside trick or two yet not be worth opening? Surely no-one would double in that position simply for an extra 50 points.

[Caitlynne]

The double is certainly intended for takeout. If by some freaky miracle partner's holding has 4H beaten, partner would just call Pass and take the plus score. Partner has a shapely hand and does not want to sell out - probably a 3 suited hand with a heart void.

 

You cannot Pass. For several reasons (e.g., Law of Total Tricks says the opponents are protected). But most importantly, partner has asked you to take the double out to a suit and expects you to do so unless you have a heart stack behind declarer. And you don't have that. Rather, you have two suits - clubs and diamonds - so there is no reason to hesitate making the obvious bid of 4NT which, of course, is unusual asking partner to choose a minor.

 

This 4NT bid also has the fortuitous benefit of transferring the declaration to partner, positionally protecting any spade honor partner might hold from being led through on the opening lead.

[miamijd]

I think 5D stands out.

 

Partner's double is 100% takeout. Fourth seat 4H/4S openers show about 8.5 tricks but no real slam interest (too much more than this isn't good, as you'll miss slams if partner has the right hand) and often shortness in spades. Maybe 7 solid hearts and an outside trick or two. You won't get rich doubling this contract, and if partner has heart cards you have no score to protect. So if partner really does have a penalty X, he should just pass 4H out and take his profit.

 

So what does he have for a X that couldn't open in 3d seat? He doesn't have a spade/minor two-suiter, as a couple posters suggested, because that would be a 1S third-seat opener. So he has some three-suited hand with a heart void that he didn't feel comfortable opening. Maybe:

 

Kxxx

void

KJxx

QTxxx

 

That's about as good as I can imagine without making the hand an obvious third-seat opener. This hand has a shot at 5D (basically, the As has to be with opener's partner and clubs can't be too awful). If 5D doesn't make, it's possible the opponents can make 4H. A good two-way shot, especially at IMPs. With a stiff heart, I can't construct a hand that I would X on now that I wouldn't have opened in 3d seat.

 

I don't think I would bid 4NT, because it's pointless. You're going to be in a 9-fit one way or the other (a 10-fit if partner is 4054), so why not just bid 5D now.

 

Cheers,

mike

[MrAce]

I ♥ this bar!

[kontoleon]

First of all i really not understand the point from 4H after 3 pass!(i prefere pass out here)

2nd i don't care even if this bid was by robbot i passed from penalty, i have 2 aces, and in fact i really hate take out double after 4 level open.

 

If you really agree with your partener from take out double maybe 5D. But what are the change to taken the 11 tricks with out taken at least 4 defence trick?(maybe big enought) (no info from Vul anyway). in fact the only logic hand i can see was looks like

Axxxx

---

Kxxx

Kxxx if i am correct with your

 

J2

T8

AQT42

A964 you had 1 trick in S, 2 in H(ruff) 5 in D 2 in C(total 10) and is tought to thing wh to manage to take the 11nth.

 

is pass, we have ? possible A AK © and a hope from A D. i pass?(i have no idea) maybe partener want a good sac, by holding no aces... (looks like

kxxxx

---

Kxxx

QJxxx In real deal with real partener i had to know what exacly wanted to tell(penalty or take out) in radom BBO partener i pass this 100%

[Wayne_LV]

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

[helene_t]

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

It's not practical to play 4NT as take-out when 4♠ is the most likely bid partner would make in response to a take out double.

 

Here you could play 4♠ as take-out, though. Partner would have opened with a 6 card suit or decent 5 cards.

[miamijd]

With regular partners I play x of 4 level bid is penalty, 4NT is takeout.

 

No one ever played a X of 4H that way. How do you get to 4S?

 

Even with a X of 4S, penalty is impractical. Then how do you show a two-suited hand? I think almost every expert pair in the would play a X of a 4S opener as card-showing with support for the unbids. The more spades you have, the more stuff you need. Yes, partner is going to leave it more than 50% of the time, but that's only because the level is so high. 4NT then becomes a strong two-suited hand (any two suits).

 

You only lose when partner has a true penalty X of 4S, and even then, if he just has a spade stack, maybe his partner can reopen with a X. Otherwise, you still go plus. These hands are very uncommon. Much more common are (A) a really good hand with 1-2 spades and no 6-card suit and (B) a really good two-suiter. With (A), doubling is a huge improvement over 4NT, because partner can then pass then X (as he will want to do more often than not). Bidding 4NT and forcing a five-level contract on these hands is a good way to turn a big plus into a big minus. With (B), if you play your way, you can't distinguish the three-suiter or balanced hand (1-2s) from the 5-5 or better two-suiter. That's a big distinction, and one the 4NT bid works well for.

 

If you still play X of 4S as penalty and 4NT as a general takeout, consider switching to the modern method.

 

Cheers,

mike

[Phil]

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

 

Passing is not an option.

[Tramticket]

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

 

Passing is not an option.

How good can your passed-hand partner be? Difficult to see him bidding with that shape.

[maartenxq]

4 Nt and see what 'p' concocted this time.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[TylerE]

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

 

Because they didn't openin 3rd seat? Partner doesn't have a good anything.

[Coldwarvet]

Gotta say, and would tell partner this in the post-mortem, that the only thing that double can be is for penalty. Three passes - then 4H? What kind of takeout can begin at the 4S/5minor level with three passed hands, so around 20 HCP?? And if they make 4SX, he shot it, he can eat it.

[miamijd]

Would definitely bid 4N and not 5D. Why can't partner be a good 4225?

 

Passing is not an option.

 

If partner is 4225 with enough stuff to come in after 4H, he would have opened 1C third seat. Having failed to do that, there is no way he has 2H and is strong enough to come in with a X over 4H. In fact, I can't even produce a hand with a stiff heart that I would X on now that I wouldn't have opened third seat.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[PhilG007]

The 4♥ opening bid in 4th is unusual, but suggests that West either has 10 tricks in his own hand, or is very close to it. Either way we are probably not getting rich penalising 4♥ - partner also knows this, which is why the double is take-out. I'm also guessing that West is short in spades, since he seems anxious to keep us out of the bidding.

 

I would bid 5♦ and wouldn't be surprised if (a) it fails to make, but turns out to be a profitable sacrifice or; (b) the opponents take the push to 5♥.

 

I was taught when a novice many moons ago that the double of a game call is ALWAYS for blood.regardless of the vulnerability What else can it mean?!

And,with regard to my previous posting on this thread,preempting in 4th seat is just plain daft. It serves no useful purpose whatsoeverhttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif

[johnu]

I was taught when a novice many moons ago that the double of a game call is ALWAYS for blood.regardless of the vulnerability What else can it mean?!

And,with regard to my previous posting on this thread,preempting in 4th seat is just plain daft. It serves no useful purpose whatsoeverhttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif

 

Where else can you find nuggets like this?

[marklaf]

It means whatever you choose to do...it is your fault. These kinds of bids end partnerships.

[ahydra]

Where else can you find nuggets like this?

 

In the same place you can find duplicate posts :P. (But you are right, and PhilG is wrong, sorry PhilG - as per a previous post, there simply aren't enough hearts in the pack nor points in partner's hand for this to possibly be a pure penalty double, unless partner found an Ace hidden behind another card or something.)

 

ahydra

[Stephen Tu]

PhilG is occasionally right in the sense of how you should play with an average bridge player who was frozen like Captain America around WWII and just thawed out recently. Or maybe the average 80 year old at the local senior center.

 

Just not right on how to play with bridge players who learned how to play within the last 40-50 years or players currently playing upper levels of tournament bridge.

[PhilG007]

PhilG is occasionally right in the sense of how you should play with an average bridge player who was frozen like Captain America around WWII and just thawed out recently. Or maybe the average 80 year old at the local senior center.

 

Just not right on how to play with bridge players who learned how to play within the last 40-50 years or players currently playing upper levels of tournament bridge.

 

Stephen Tu I challenge you to a match Head to head I throw down the gauntlet Dare you accept? Let us see if you

are more than just an armchair critic(!) The tongue of the coward is brave(!) http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[sfi]

PhilG is occasionally right in the sense of how you should play with an average bridge player who was frozen like Captain America around WWII and just thawed out recently. Or maybe the average 80 year old at the local senior center.

 

Just not right on how to play with bridge players who learned how to play within the last 40-50 years or players currently playing upper levels of tournament bridge.

 

Give him some credit. Just today he agreed with the world's most obvious 3NT call on another thread, so there is hope yet.

[Stephen Tu]

Stephen Tu I challenge you to a match Head to head I throw down the gauntlet Dare you accept? Let us see if you

are more than just an armchair critic(!) The tongue of the coward is brave(!) http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

Sure name the format; IMPS, MP, best hand/non-best hand. 64 boards to minimize luck factor as in the forum challenges.

[PhilG007]

Give him some credit. Just today he agreed with the world's most obvious 3NT call on another thread, so there is hope yet.

Are you speaking about Beethoven?! He's dead(!)http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif

 

[PhilG007]

Sure name the format; IMPS, MP, best hand/non-best hand. 64 boards to minimize luck factor as in the forum challenges.

 

Stephen Tu, Your challenge awaits 10 boards MPs 64 is way too much I have other things to do This is a challenge not a Marathon (!)http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gifIf you defeat me,I will make no further comments on these forums This is my solemn promise.

If,however I beat you then you will apologise for your disparaging remarks and recognise me for the advanced player that I amDo you agree to the terms of the challenge or are you just another hot air balloon ?!