What does this double mean?

[smerriman]

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I believe a double of a 4 level preempt is an optional double even in passout seat, but what if the "preempt" was in passout seat too?

 

And would you pass? (IMPs)

[TylerE]

I don't know what it is.

 

I pass.

 

It's either going to win or it'll teach partner to never try to pull that ***** again.

[wank]

i wouldn't call a double of a 4 level pre-empt 'optional' in any position.

 

by a passed hand it's a pure takeout double anyway - normally a void, especially as in this case where you're a passed hand too. with short hearts and no honours it's pretty clear pull for me.

[TylerE]

This is a terrible hand to pull with. It's enough that you have a decent chance to set if partner can provide even 1 trick, and it's lightyears away from making 11.

[wank]

 

 

It's either going to win or it'll teach partner to never try to pull that ***** again.

 

i'm afraid that's a ridiculous thing to say. what do you expect partner to do with atxx - qxxxx atxx, sit there patiently and wait to collect his 20%?

[cherdano]

What kind of hybris does it take to get into an argument about this auction *after* admitting in the first sentence not to know what double is?

 

Obvious 5♦ bid - I'd be expecting to make it.

[TylerE]

I'd expect him to open 1♦.

 

If partner starts passing opening hands I don't have much sympathy when he complains of trying to catch up later.

[ahydra]

I'd expect him to open 1♦.

 

If partner starts passing opening hands I don't have much sympathy when he complains of trying to catch up later.

 

Swap an ace for a king then. I think wank is right, the double just makes very little sense otherwise.

 

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

the double just makes very little sense otherwise.

 

ahydra

 

After passing in 3rd position on these colours the double makes no sense period. Neither does bidding and expecting to make.

[wank]

After passing in 3rd position on these colours the double makes no sense period. Neither does bidding and expecting to make.

 

if partner's 5440 with a poor 5 card suit it's fine for him to pass and hope to show his hand better later, which he seems to have achieved.

[TylerE]

if partner's 5440 with a poor 5 card suit it's fine for him to pass and hope to show his hand better later, which he seems to have achieved.

 

Why give up a chance at +110 when you can go -500 vs air, right?

[MrAce]

 

I believe a double of a 4 level preempt is an optional double even in passout seat, but what if the "preempt" was in passout seat too?

 

And would you pass? (IMPs)

 

That is a PURE take-out and I am taking it out.

 

When I hear penalty suggestions I want to scream "How ............ can you be?" but i refrain myself because people are taking it as a challenge ffs!

[rmnka447]

5 ♦

 

I don't think 4 ♥ is a preempt in 4th seat, but more probably some hand with long hearts, some values, and spade shortness. Opener likely judged that the hand wasn't ever going to make slam opposite a passing partner, had a decent chance of making, and probably wouldn't be set much if it didn't. I'd think maybe something like ♠ x ♥ AKQ10xxxx ♦ x ♣ QJ10 or maybe ♠ x ♥ KQJ10xxxx ♦ x ♣ KQJ. 4 ♥ then is a tactical bid attempting to avoid a ♥ vs. ♠ competitive auction. At least, that's what I'd expect out of a competent, reasonably sane player.

 

At IMPs opposite a passing partner, double can't be penalty because the ballpark two passing partners are playing in is a part score and any positive isn't likely to swing many IMPs one way or the other. So sitting and taking a positive by beating 4 ♥ stands to lose little and gain when the opponents playing your way overbid in a part score.

 

Anyhow, holding ♥ 10 doubleton makes it virtually impossible for partner to hold some hand with a stack that could penalize 4 ♥.

[PhilG007]

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I believe a double of a 4 level preempt is an optional double even in passout seat, but what if the "preempt" was in passout seat too?

 

And would you pass? (IMPs)

 

Firstly,I have to say that preempting in the pass out seat is senseless...there's no-one left to preempt(!) As for the double,it HAS to

be for blood. Partner is obviously sitting with a trump stack over declarer.

[msjennifer]

I shall first ask them if they play 4C/D as respective transfers to 4H/S as hands 012 in any chair and 4H/S as 123 respectively.A suitable action can then be taken considering the pros and cons as per vulnerability,scoring method and one's mood at the time.

[steve2005]

i'm afraid that's a ridiculous thing to say. what do you expect partner to do with atxx - qxxxx atxx, sit there patiently and wait to collect his 20%?

Open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[steve2005]

I shall first ask them if they play 4C/D as respective transfers to 4H/S as hands 012 in any chair and 4H/S as 123 respectively.A suitable action can then be taken considering the pros and cons as per vulnerability,scoring method and one's mood at the time.

Good point. People have gone away from 4C/4D Namyats as these bids too useful as natural.

In 4th seat Namyats is a nice convention, but I fear my partners won't remember if only playing in 4th (or 3rd)

 

In any case partner has passed making a 5-level contract seems unlikely. I have people stretch in 4th with 4M and not have as long trump suit as would expect and is holey.

But you have enough defense you might beat (possibly for a lot) and bidding on could be a 1-800 toll free number.

What partner could possible have for any sort of double as a passed hand is beyond me?

[nekthen]

First thing to say is North could have saved himself an awful lot of grief by opening the bidding. This meets all modern standards for a light 1 diamond (or 1N if playing 12-14). We have 2 and 1/2 QT we meet rule of 20 and we have an easy rebid whatever partner says.

To make 5 partner must have a heart void and cover 3 cards in my hand and not have an opening bid in 3rd seat

Axxx

-

Kxxx

Kxxxx

 

I think that covers it, so 5♦ it is.

[GrahamJson]

Partner must have an extreme two or three suiter (most likely two suits to come in at this level). I won’t spend too much time wondering why he didn’t open in third position; I guess he has his reasons. I’m bidding 4NT expecting partner to bid his lowest suit.

[FelicityR]

The question - it seems to me - that you need to ask is why didn't partner open the bidding in 3rd position first time around? And the answer that seems logical to be is that he has a shapely hand with mediocre suits, maybe 4045 4054 or 5044, a tad light of a genuine opening, and feared a misfit due to the void. However with the 4♥ opening by West his hand can be re-assessed.

 

I'd look at the double as competitive, primarily for takeout, with a very small percentage option as a penalty double if partner has a stack of trumps over opener. So it's 5♦ from me too.

[Tramticket]

The 4♥ opening bid in 4th is unusual, but suggests that West either has 10 tricks in his own hand, or is very close to it. Either way we are probably not getting rich penalising 4♥ - partner also knows this, which is why the double is take-out. I'm also guessing that West is short in spades, since he seems anxious to keep us out of the bidding.

 

I would bid 5♦ and wouldn't be surprised if (a) it fails to make, but turns out to be a profitable sacrifice or; (b) the opponents take the push to 5♥.

[gszes]

bidding goes p p and you look at the following collection KQxx void Jxxxx Kxxx hmmm ugly in almost every way shape or form no lead directional bid no aces ick I pass and suddenly lho pipes up with 4h??? p p and here we are again. Well shoot what to make of that preemptive 4h bid surely p has some reasonable values over there for this bidding to happen. It seems right to back in with x as we have 3 landing spots for a reasonable sacrifice with even the tiny chance we may make something of our own.

[PhilG007]

The question - it seems to me - that you need to ask is why didn't partner open the bidding in 3rd position first time around? And the answer that seems logical to be is that he has a shapely hand with mediocre suits, maybe 4045 4054 or 5044, a tad light of a genuine opening, and feared a misfit due to the void. However with the 4♥ opening by West his hand can be re-assessed.

 

I'd look at the double as competitive, primarily for takeout, with a very small percentage option as a penalty double if partner has a stack of trumps over opener. So it's 5♦ from me too.

 

If it transpires that partner WAS doubling on the strength of a trump stack,then you are going to have some explaining to do in the postmortem.

By removing the double you are quite literally telling your partner "I saw your double partner,but you're a liar and I don't trust you"

It wouldn't come as a shock if the partnership dissolved soon afterwardshttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[Tramticket]

If it transpires that partner WAS doubling on the strength of a trump stack,then you are going to have some explaining to do in the postmortem.

By removing the double you are quite literally telling your partner "I saw your double partner,but you're a liar and I don't trust you"

It wouldn't come as a shock if the partnership dissolved soon afterwardshttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

A few questions come to mind:

- What sort of hand do you expect West to hold? How many hearts? What suit quality for the hearts? Please bear in mind that West could have passed-out, so West is presumably bidding in the expectation of making 4♥ and not with the intention of sacrificing.

- Add the number of hearts that you hold (two) to the number that you expect West to hold and deduct this total from 13. How much of a "trump stack" does that leave for your partner?

- If partner really does hold a stack of hearts, why didn't he/she bid before?

 

If you properly consider and answer these questions, it will be fairly obvious that partner can't be doubling based on a trump stack. If you then check a calendar, it will also become clear that this is now the 21st century*. Taken together, you might conclude that partner has made a take-out double. You might still choose to pass the take-out double for penalties (I wouldn't) - but don't do it in the expectation that partner has a trump stack!

 

 

[* Having established that this is the 21st century, you might choose to bid 1♦ as your opening bid - saving a lot of angst].

[TylerE]

I think it is more likely that partner has some hearts here than over, say, a 2nd seat 4[♥. Something like Qxxx isn't out of the question. Maybe even QJxx.