Simple ATB - how to handle this preempt

[el mister]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk7hj9873dak976cq&n=saqj854ht6dq32ca9&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1s4cdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Club game matchpoints. 4♣X - 1 did not make us rich, in fact it was a cold bottom. Reasonable calls, or is there clear culpability for not bidding 4S (either N or S)?

[Tramticket]

S#@t happens! Well done opps.

[Cyberyeti]

I would always double with the S hand, I'd bid 4♠ some of the time with the N hand so if there's any blame it goes to N but not much.

[ggwhiz]

I would always double with the S hand, I'd bid 4♠ some of the time with the N hand so if there's any blame it goes to N but not much.

 

Same here and I'm willing to bet others faced a 3♣ pre-empt instead of 4.

[el mister]

Same here and I'm willing to bet others faced a 3♣ pre-empt instead of 4.

Yeah I thought a zero was a bit harsh on this deal, but RHO was the strongest player in the room, so maybe judged the level of the preempt better than others.

[apollo1201]

More North. When South promises inv+ values, some Hs and probably some back-up plan / tolerance for D/S, the good 6-bagger and the 2 Aces would suggest bidding on. Anyway 4C forces us to do sth as the bidding space is seriously lowered.

That reminds me of a good player who opened green vs red 3m in front of me, I had 16 and tried (not too confidently) 3NT. Other room was pass, 1NT opening, Responder with 4 queens didn’t think he was worth an invite at red, but both déclarers made 9 tricks...

[apollo1201]

More North. When South promises inv+ values, some Hs and probably some back-up plan / tolerance for D/S, the good 6-bagger and the 2 Aces would suggest bidding on. Anyway 4C forces us to do sth as the bidding space is seriously lowered.

That reminds me of a good player who opened green vs red 3m in front of me, I had 16 and tried (not too confidently) 3NT. Other room was pass, 1NT opening, Responder with 4 queens didn’t think he was worth an invite at red, but both déclarers made 9 tricks...

[wank]

north, obviously

[broze]

Wouldn't even consider pass as North - south could have a void club!

[Cyberyeti]

Wouldn't even consider pass as North - south could have a void club!

 

Could equally be 0553

[gszes]

4s seems to stand out. The suit will play well opposite xx K or T and the fact that over half of our power is located in our longest suit greatly diminishes our defensive potential while raising our offensive potential. The negative x virtually guarantees at least some reasonable tolerance for spades when it was so easy for responder to bid a forcing 4d or 4h. Good suits do not happen that much so bidding them when they do happen would seem to be a good idea when there is doubt about what else to do.

4c might have been a magic bullet so kudos if it was a non universal action but suppressing a suit that is this good (especially a major suit) will most likely be a bad idea in the long run (especially at imps).

[wank]

Could equally be 0553

 

if he's doubling with this shape then he's got a pretty fat hand so 4s is fine

[rmnka447]

North

 

First of all, what is the agreement about the double of 4 ♣? If you play negative doubles through at least 4 ♣, then South's bid is fine. If you play them as negative only through 3 ♠, as many people do, then I think South has to just hitch up his/her slacks and bid 4 ♦.

 

Let's assume it's played as negative. At the 4 level, it has to be made on a pretty decent hand. I think the distribution and tolerance for opener's suit favor bidding with this hand. Once the double is made, I think North has to bid 4 ♠. North's values are really in his/her long suit, so aren't necessarily that useful on defense. Like the man says, bid what you've got. If South persists over 4 ♠, North should preference to ♦.

[ahydra]

Agree with those saying North should bid 4S.

 

ahydra

[msjennifer]

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

[cherdano]

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

No it's not.

[Cyberyeti]

Almost all players play negative double upto 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

 

You seem to have no comprehension of what goes on outside your immediate circle, negative to 7♥ is not uncommon, negative to at least 4♥ is normal here.

[Cyberyeti]

if he's doubling with this shape then he's got a pretty fat hand so 4s is fine

 

Not necessarily by any means, amd even if he has the likely 5-2 spade break may well scupper you anyway.

[dsLawsd]

Both should bid 4S. Otherwise a negative double with such poor suits seems wrong at the 4 level.

 

Perhaps having an agreement that 4 D shows 5-5 or better with Spade tolerance would be worth considering.

[nekthen]

I vote North. The double should have some spade tolerance at this level. North could have a weak NT hand with a 5 card spade suit (assuming SAYC) and may go down in 4S but 4C may even make in that scenario. If playing Acol, worst case scenario is a 4333 15 count when N presumably passes and hopes for the best.

[Cyberyeti]

Both should bid 4S. Otherwise a negative double with such poor suits seems wrong at the 4 level.

 

 

I'd love to see the post mortem when S bid 4♠ and N had KQxxx, AKxxx, x, xx, 4♠ went off, 4♥ was cold when preempter had x, x, Jxx, AKxxxxxx

[Tramticket]

I'd love to see the post mortem when S bid 4♠ and N had KQxxx, AKxxx, x, xx, 4♠ went off, 4♥ was cold when preempter had x, x, Jxx, AKxxxxxx

 

Too many K♠'s - but I agree with the point.

[gszes]

Almost all players play negative double up to 3S only unless previously discussed.Personally I would bid 4S ,which many will consider absurd, with the South hand.Unless previously discussed 4Cx Is a penalty double.

 

I have to admit that I have seen no player that uses neg x BELOW (a max of) 4h in a longgggg time. The rationale for using neg x through 7h is quite strong (though so rare it does bring utility into question vs other far more common uses).

 

Having to bid 4s with this hand should give you good reason to pause and reconsider how high you want to play neg x:)

[gszes]

I have to admit that I have seen no player that uses neg x BELOW (a max of) 4h in a longgggg time. The rationale for using neg x through 7h is quite strong (though so rare it does bring utility into question vs other far more common uses).

 

Having to bid 4s (as responder) with this hand should give you good reason to pause and reconsider how high you want to play neg x:)

[FelicityR]

I think that if you make a negative double at the four level in this type of auction you should have a tiny bit of tolerance for partner's opening suit, especially a major, so North should press on to 4♠ with the extra sixth ♠. However, I do accept that if you have a 0553 hand you really do not have any other bid than double too.