Combining weak and medium hands in a WOS

Kungsgeten · May 13, 2018

I've personally played a WOS (Weak Opening System) where pass was 0-7 or 17+ and 1C was 12-16 unbal / 15-17 NT. There's also systems (Carotti being one) where pass shows the medium hands, but is limited (0-7 is opened with a fert). Has anyone of you tried an approach where the medium hands (handled by 1C in the system I used to play, and also in Magic Diamond) were combined with the weak (0-7) hands? I'm thinking something like this:

Pass = 0-7 any, or 13-16 unbal or 15-17 NT.

1C = 8-11 NT or 17+

1NT = 12-14 (could switch the NT strengths depending on vulnerability).

Others = Handles unbalanced 8-12 hands. Perhaps Moscito-style.

This puts a lot of pressure on the pass "opening" of course, so perhaps some opening hands should be put elsewhere. Example inspired by Magic Diamond and Turnip Diamond:

1D = 13-16 with 5+M (thus the pass denies 5+M if holding opening strength)

1M = 4+M, possibly longer minor, 8-12.

2m = 5+m, no major, 8-12.

2M = (optional) 10-14 with 4M and 5+ minor. Not mandatory. Offloads 1M and pass a bit.

2NT = Minors?

Third seat could be something like:

Pass = Doesn't want to bid.

1C = 7-13 NT or 17+. Now 1D is 0-7 and others opening strength.

1D = Unbal, no major. About 6-16. Doesn't promise diamonds.

1M = 4+M, 6-16.

1NT = 14-17

2X = ?

nullve · May 13, 2018

Has anyone of you tried an approach where the medium hands (handled by 1C in the system I used to play, and also in Magic Diamond) were combined with the weak (0-7) hands?

I haven't, which may have something to do with the fact that HUMs are generally not allowed where I live. (We follow WBF's system policy, more or less.)

But here's an idea for a similar non-HUM framework:

P = 0-7, any(?) OR 13-16, shapes of type T

...P: rare/unexpected

...1-level: whatever, but never with 0-7

...2-level: non-BSC bids that are supposed to cover all 0-7 hands that Responder can't comfortably either pass or open 3♣+ with

...(E.g.

...2x = 0-7, 4+ x, no higher-ranking suit

...2N = 20-21 BAL)

...(...)

1-level: whatever, but never with shapes of type T unless 17+*

2♣+: must take care of 8-12 hands with shapes of type T*,

where the Opener has 13-16 hcp and shape of type T only if he can stand every 2-level response to Pass. So I guess few balanced shapes can be of type T.

* Because of the WBF System Policy's 2.2. b), the Pass opening cannot contain hands with the same shape but more hcp than any 1-level opening. So if e.g. 13-16, 6214 is a Pass opening, then 8-12, 6214 cannot be a 1♠ opening.)

Edited May 15, 2018 by nullve

nullve · May 16, 2018

rbforster's Silent Club is something like

P = a Precision Pass, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (more or less)

...P = all 0-7 hands unsuitable for 2♦+, I guess

...1♣ = Precision

...1♦ = 8-15, 2+ D

...1M = 8-15, 4+ M

...1N = same as in 1st seat

...2♣ = 8-15, 5+ C

...2x(x>♣) = 3-9, 6+ x

...(...)

1♣-1N/2♥+ = Precision, more or less

2m = freed up

I wonder if "Speechless Spade"*, using

P = a Precision Pass or 1♠ opening

...P: almost non-existent

...1♣/N = Precision

...1♦ = 8-15, nebulous

...1M = 8-15, 5+ M

...2♣ = 0-7, either 3-S4-H4-D4+C (3334 and 4C4R(32) possible!) or 1-S4C (tries to avoid a 2♠ contract opposite 5 S by not responding 2R)

...2♦ = 0-7, either 3-S4-H4+D3-C (3343 and 4H4D(32) possible!), 2-3S4-H5+D4C (can stand 2♠ on 5), 5+D5+C (can rebid 3♣ if necessary) or 1-S5+H4D (tries to avoid a 2♠ contract opposite 5 S by not responding 2♥)

...2♥ = 0-7, either 3-S4+H3-D3-C (3433 possible!), 2-3S5+H4m (can stand 2♠ on 5) or 5H5+m (can rebid 3m if necessary)

...2♠ = 0-7, 4+ S (4333, 4S4O(32) and 4S(441) possible!)

...(...)

1♠: not a Precision 1♠ opening, so maybe a Precision 2♣ or 2♦ opening?,

could be at least an interesting alternative. But maybe the Lorenzo-like responses to Pass are more dangerous than I think. :( (Edit: They are less dangerous if the 1♣ opening includes 8-10 BAL, as in the OP system.)

* 'Silent Spade' is already taken: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/39351-bidding-system-designed-by-computer (post #67)

rbforster · May 17, 2018

Yeah, Silent Club has P = normal pass (0-8/9ish), or Precision 2♣, or Precision 2♦

I played a two way NF-Pass system for fun that was basically light opening precision where

P = weak, or 13-15 NT

1♣ 16+

1N = 10-12 bal

rest as per precision, 9-15ish range, with 1♦ natural 4+

After the P, you opened light just like in 1/2nd seats, 8-15 suit hands with 10-12 NT, only now 1♦ could be 13-15 NT.

P-1X-1N showed the 13-15 NT hand, barring a Drury raise or similar, and you just passed with the typical weaker P-1X-1NT hand type since partner was limited by not opening 1C.

You can extend this to having basically all 13-15 hands pass initially, along with the 0-7/8 weak ones, and then have partner open any 8+ in 3/4th. You won't miss much despite passing these intermediate opening hands.

It was not obviously a good system, but it was kinda fun and playable.

straube · May 18, 2018

I played a two way NF-Pass system for fun that was basically light opening precision where

P = weak, or 13-15 NT
1♣ 16+
1N = 10-12 bal
rest as per precision, 9-15ish range, with 1♦ natural 4+

After the P, you opened light just like in 1/2nd seats, 8-15 suit hands with 10-12 NT, only now 1♦ could be 13-15 NT.
P-1X-1N showed the 13-15 NT hand, barring a Drury raise or similar, and you just passed with the typical weaker P-1X-1NT hand type since partner was limited by not opening 1C.

It was not obviously a good system, but it was kinda fun and playable.

not obviously or obviously not?

I've thought that there is too much room after P P 1M P. Here, you could have 1N (nf), 2C (13-15 bal relay), 2D-good raise.

You would also have better auctions after P P 1C P than had you preempted the bidding with 1N (13-15)

I wonder, though, how often did opener get preempted? Maybe the main argument for strong NT (vs weak NT) is the ability to show a pretty good but not great hand before the bidding gets too high.

rbforster · May 19, 2018

not obviously or obviously not?

Not obviously good, not obviously bad. Fun but weird.

I've thought that there is too much room after P P 1M P. Here, you could have 1N (nf), 2C (13-15 bal relay), 2D-good raise.
You would also have better auctions after P P 1C P than had you preempted the bidding with 1N (13-15)

With the silent club, after P-1D/1M, 2C was the precision club hand and 2D was drury (including the passed precision 2D hand of course). I didn't normally pass the 13–15NT but of course you could add that as well. Uncontested auctions are clearly better since precision since you don't preempt finding your 4-4 major fits by opening 2C and can still stop in 2C if you want. Of course you might have preempted them or they might have preempted you, etc, hard to say for sure, but it's better in constructive auctions anyway since you get more space and use it. Passing out is rare when you have the balance of power (max is 22, 15 vs 7).

I wonder, though, how often did opener get preempted? Maybe the main argument for strong NT (vs weak NT) is the ability to show a pretty good but not great hand before the bidding gets too high.

I'm not sure about that argument about strong NT. I'd rather open a weaker NT earlier since it's only worth one bid. A 15-17 hand could double a preempt or rebid NT more easily.

Thinking back, I think the opening structure with P = weak or 13-15NT was to play two weaker NT ranges, i.e.

P 0-7 or 13-15NT

1C 16+

1D 10-12 NT or 8-15 natural

1N 8-9 super light NT

straube · May 20, 2018

I always thought that Silent Club has a lot of merit. I wonder what Adam thinks of it anymore (didn't he come up with it?) and also the separate idea to pass with 13-15 NT. Maybe a third idea of Silent Diamond as IMprecision's 2D is very preemptive (but I think I remember he gets his best scores with it?)

Of the three, I think I like the pass with 13-15 balanced the best though I continue to wonder how often those hands get lost in competition.

Thanks for clarifying everything, Rob.

awm · May 20, 2018

I always thought that Silent Club has a lot of merit. I wonder what Adam thinks of it anymore (didn't he come up with it?) and also the separate idea to pass with 13-15 NT. Maybe a third idea of Silent Diamond as IMprecision's 2D is very preemptive (but I think I remember he gets his best scores with it?)

It depends a lot on the type of hand you are passing and which other options you're comparing against. Unbalanced hands with 4-5♣ as the primary suit seem fine to pass; standard bidding opens these with 1♣, which doesn't take up any space and also doesn't really describe the hand since it's expected to be a weak notrump. So you're not losing a lot there. Precision has multiple bids to cover this hand type, but in general you'll use an opening that takes a lot of space that your own side needs to find fits (the 2♣ opening), an opening which partner expects to be a weak notrump (or to have length in a different suit - 1♦) or with a bid that can easily be past the level of safety as well as wasting a useful preempt for this rare hand type (2♦).

Basically, most of the field has trouble with these hands, and they're not easily "grouped" with other hand types in a way that can't hurt you. So I'm fine with passing them.

Hands with a long single suit are quite different; if you have the option of opening 2m (natural 6+) with these you take a lot of space away from opponents while giving a lot of useful information to partner. Passing the hand with 6+♣ is definitely a loss when compared to precision; you are perhaps saved by most of the field not having a good opening on this hand and showing it as "probably a weak notrump."

With the 13-15 balanced hand, it can often get uncomfortable to back in later, so partner can easily be a step behind. Say the auction goes Pass-1♠ and partner has some 9-10 count; he is probably not bidding... but now you get -Pass-2♠ and it's dangerous to pre-balance with a flat 13, but if you pass opponents could be just short of a game try and partner's balance is scary...

Obviously this can happen with passing the unbalanced club hand too, but if you have short spades the pre-balance becomes a lot safer and if you're short in another suit it's odds-on partner's length is your shortness so passing is the best option.

I'm also (in general) not a huge believer in opening very bad balanced hands, because this gives opponents a lot of information in the play (both the opening and the pass) and I don't think the "balanced preempt" is all that effective against good opponents. So I'd be happier just passing the 8-10 balanced range along with 0-7 unbalanced...

nullve · May 20, 2018

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n 7643.AK4.QJ8765. e QJ52.Q932.AK4.K6 s K9.JT65.T9.AQT32 w AT8.87.32.J98754

n K843.A8.QJT86.43 e .KQT973.K72.K986 s J762.J65.A9.AJT5 w AQT95.42.543.Q72

n J52.AQ.976.AK975 e 7.J9643.AJ82.QJ2 s AQT9643.T7.53.86 w K8.K852.KQT4.T43

n QJ75.K97.K.QT862 e AK4.6532.Q654.J3 s T862.A.AJ8.AK974 w 93.QJT84.T9732.5

n AQT86.Q7.T972.QT e J43.K532.5.A8642 s K752.JT864.843.J w 9.A9.AKQJ6.K9753

n K.AKQ6543.J82.83 e AQ876532...J9764 s T4.JT82.9743.AQT w J9.97.AKQT65.K52

n 872.6.QT762.AKT7 e K63.KQJ74.K84.J3 s AT4.A532.AJ9.Q64 w QJ95.T98.53.9852

Of these, here are the ones where North may have a Precision P or 1♠ opening: