competing over short club or diamond

[Shugart23]

I would appreciate any comments, criticisms, or suggestions for enhancements on what Partner and I are starting to do over non-precision short Club or a short Diamond opening bids by LHO. So far it is working out.

 

Double is take-out

1NT overcall is 13-17 with all systems on..5332 hands with a 5 card Major fit in here

 

Thus, all other bids are capped at around 11 or 12 HCP

 

over 1C, 1D is yet to be defined (and open to ideas)

 

over 1C or over 1D:

 

1H shows 5+ Hearts; 4+ Spades.....most of the time, precisely 5-4, but could be very weak 5-5 depending upon colors

1S shows 5+ Spades; 4+ Hearts.....most of the time, precisely 5-4, but could be very weak 5-5 depending upon colors

1NT...13-17...no singleton or void

2C is a relay to 2D showing 5+ Diamonds or 5-5 in a Major and a Minor

2D tends to shows unbalanced hand, 5+ Hearts and is transfer

2H shows 5-5 in both Majors

2S tends to shows unbalanced hand, 5+ Spades

2NT is a relay to Clubs, showing 6+

3C shows 5-5 in the Minors....pass or correct

higher bids are pre-emptive

 

In the rare situation where LHO opens a short Club or short Diamond and it goes Pass-Pass -? the above is still 'on' for 4th bid

 

(All the 2-level bids are basically 'Hello' bids)

 

Thanks for anyone willing to look over.

[nullve]

Why does

 

all other bids are capped at around 11 or 12 HCP

follow from

 

Double is take-out

1NT overcall is 13-17 with all systems on..5332 hands with a 5 card Major fit in here

? Is it because the double is not classic takeout but also covers most 13+ hands with a singleton/void?

[Shugart23]

Why does

 

 

follow from

 

 

? Is it because the double is not classic takeout but also covers most 13+ hands with a singleton/void?

 

 

This is a work in progress, but yes...since the short Club or Diamond may have zero cards in the suit, our Double doesn't necessarily show shortness in Opener's suit as well.....Our Double also would pick up on hands having 18+ points as well.....

[nullve]

This is a work in progress, but yes...since the short Club or Diamond may have zero cards in the suit, our Double doesn't necessarily show shortness in Opener's suit as well.....Our Double also would pick up on hands having 18+ points as well.....

Maybe you could play

 

(1♣)-X = 12-16 unBAL or 15-17 BAL (a Magic Diamond 1♣ opening)

 

and either

 

(1♣)-1♦ = 17+ unBAL OR 18+ BAL (a Magic Diamond 1♦ opening)

 

or

 

(1♣)-P = 0-7, any OR 17+ unBAL OR 18+ BAL (the Pass opening in Kungsgeten's Pass 2000, for example)

 

?

[steve2005]

There is a big difference between a short club or short diamond that promises 2+ and one that promises 0+.

If 2+ you don't really need to change your system. Sure over 1D can use 2D natural 2H NF mich and 3D strong Mich

and something similar if you want 2C cuebid to be natural.

[Cyberyeti]

So with a 14 count and a 6 card major you have to double ? - vomits

[PrecisionL]

I would try 1NT overcall for takeout promising short in the minor opened.

 

Double for takeout with 3,4-cards in the opened minor and better than minimum hand.

[Shugart23]

So with a 14 count and a 6 card major you have to double ? - vomits

 

 

Yeah...this is definitely a problem....I may have misspoke when I said capped at 11 or 12...without that limitation.........I think with 6-4 in the Majors, I could overcall 1 of a Major and partner could cue-bid Opener to find out how good or bad the over-call was.....lacking a 4 card Major, perhaps 2D transfer to Hearts or bid natural 3H or 4H preempt if it feels right.....I need to see some of the other suggestions, because what I just said isn't really satisfying.

 

We really like the Hello system where we can show single suited or two suited hands, so I am trying to take advantage of that over short minor suit openings and use all the 1-level overcall bids to add to Hello capabilities...

[Shugart23]

I would try 1NT overcall for takeout promising short in the minor opened.

 

Double for takeout with 3,4-cards in the opened minor and better than minimum hand.

 

so would the Double also include all the 4-3-3-3 hands, say 13 + ?

[steve2005]

1N 13-17 seems to much of a disruption.

[PrecisionL]

so would the Double also include all the 4-3-3-3 hands, say 13 + ?

 

No, that hand is too weak with such flat distribution. I would prefer a good 15+ count.

[straube]

dbl-usually 3 or 4 cards in each major, could be short either minor OR strong meanings of 17+

overcalls-natural, including the opponent's minor.

1N-good 14 to bad 18

2H-majors

Jump overcalls (including the opponent's minor)-preemptive

2N-majors, stronger

 

the dbl would usually be something like a weak NT

[Kungsgeten]

I don't really understand the goals of this method. The approach seems to be to bid directly with weak distributional hands, but take it slower with "strong" hands? The double seems to show 13+ unbalanced (any shape) or 18+ NT? It has some similarities to "The Overcall Structure".

 

I think a normal 15-17 NT overcall is risky enough: third hand knows that her partner has opened, and can make a penalty double with values. By lowering to 13-17 you overcall with more hands, and are thus increasing this risk. Having a wide range on the NT overcall can make decisions harder if advancer should try for game or not.

 

If I understand correctly, your two level major overcalls (one being a transfer) is either 5M and 4+m, or 6+M? You have three bids to show both majors (1H, 1S, and 2H), which seems like a lot (but perhaps is a good idea). I personally think it is valuable being able to overcall with 1M on a lot of hands. Overcalling at the two-level is more preemptive, but it is also harder for you to find the right spot. A hand type which is unclear how you handle is 4M and 5+m, perhaps that could be the use of your 1D overcall?

 

You seem aware of the fact that 1m is seldom passed, but you do not include any kind of opening strength hand in your second hand pass. It can be risky to do so, but it is an option.

 

Some changes which I think would improve you structure:

 

Pass = Could be clubs which doesn't want to bid 2NT. Could be a weak NT, which can double for take-out (if it seems right) later.

Dbl = "Power double", 15+ hcp.

1D = 4M and 5+ minor.

1M = 5+ major.

1NT = Take-out of the suit they opened, about 10-14 hcp.

2D = 5+H and 4(+)S.

2M = Weakish.

 

Here's what I personally play (based on Woolsey's Grunt defense, with some modifications):

 

Pass = Could be a normal 1NT overcall.

Dbl = Take-out, at least 4-3 in the majors and at least 2 cards in the minor they didn't open. Could also be a hand too strong for a normal overcall.

1D = Natural. May be 5+D and 4M, even though we have the 1NT overcall, if the diamonds are strong and the major is weak.

1M = Natural.

1NT = 4M and 5+m.

2C = Natural.

2D = Weak with hearts, or constructive with 5-5 majors.

2H = Weak with both majors. At least 5-4 either way.

2S = Weak.

2NT = Constructive with 5-5 hearts + minor.

3m = Constructive, but limited, with 5-5 spades + the minor.

 

When they open 1D we do not have a bid to show diamonds, so we have to pass with that hand.

 

A tweak which I think could be nice is to make both 2m bids natural, since that sequence is pretty awkard for third seat. Then 1D could show both majors and 2H would be weak. I think that's less suited vs 1D openings though.

[nullve]

I think a normal 15-17 NT overcall is risky enough: third hand knows that her partner has opened, and can make a penalty double with values.

I've played (1♣)-1N as 14-16 BAL for a while and I still think the range is sound.

 

Having a wide range on the NT overcall can make decisions harder if advancer should try for game or not.

I don't understand why people use a 15-18 range instead of a 15-17 range, either.

[Shugart23]

I don't really understand the goals of this method. The approach seems to be to bid directly with weak distributional hands, but take it slower with "strong" hands? The double seems to show 13+ unbalanced (any shape) or 18+ NT? It has some similarities to "The Overcall Structure".

 

I think a normal 15-17 NT overcall is risky enough: third hand knows that her partner has opened, and can make a penalty double with values. By lowering to 13-17 you overcall with more hands, and are thus increasing this risk. Having a wide range on the NT overcall can make decisions harder if advancer should try for game or not.

 

If I understand correctly, your two level major overcalls (one being a transfer) is either 5M and 4+m, or 6+M? You have three bids to show both majors (1H, 1S, and 2H), which seems like a lot (but perhaps is a good idea). I personally think it is valuable being able to overcall with 1M on a lot of hands. Overcalling at the two-level is more preemptive, but it is also harder for you to find the right spot. A hand type which is unclear how you handle is 4M and 5+m, perhaps that could be the use of your 1D overcall?

 

You seem aware of the fact that 1m is seldom passed, but you do not include any kind of opening strength hand in your second hand pass. It can be risky to do so, but it is an option.

 

Some changes which I think would improve you structure:

 

Pass = Could be clubs which doesn't want to bid 2NT. Could be a weak NT, which can double for take-out (if it seems right) later.

Dbl = "Power double", 15+ hcp.

1D = 4M and 5+ minor.

1M = 5+ major.

1NT = Take-out of the suit they opened, about 10-14 hcp.

2D = 5+H and 4(+)S.

2M = Weakish.

 

Here's what I personally play (based on Woolsey's Grunt defense, with some modifications):

 

Pass = Could be a normal 1NT overcall.

Dbl = Take-out, at least 4-3 in the majors and at least 2 cards in the minor they didn't open. Could also be a hand too strong for a normal overcall.

1D = Natural. May be 5+D and 4M, even though we have the 1NT overcall, if the diamonds are strong and the major is weak.

1M = Natural.

1NT = 4M and 5+m.

2C = Natural.

2D = Weak with hearts, or constructive with 5-5 majors.

2H = Weak with both majors. At least 5-4 either way.

2S = Weak.

2NT = Constructive with 5-5 hearts + minor.

3m = Constructive, but limited, with 5-5 spades + the minor.

 

When they open 1D we do not have a bid to show diamonds, so we have to pass with that hand.

 

A tweak which I think could be nice is to make both 2m bids natural, since that sequence is pretty awkard for third seat. Then 1D could show both majors and 2H would be weak. I think that's less suited vs 1D openings though.

[Shugart23]

I don't really understand the goals of this method. The approach seems to be to bid directly with weak distributional hands, but take it slower with "strong" hands? The double seems to show 13+ unbalanced (any shape) or 18+ NT? It has some similarities to "The Overcall Structure".

 

I think a normal 15-17 NT overcall is risky enough: third hand knows that her partner has opened, and can make a penalty double with values. By lowering to 13-17 you overcall with more hands, and are thus increasing this risk. Having a wide range on the NT overcall can make decisions harder if advancer should try for game or not.

 

If I understand correctly, your two level major overcalls (one being a transfer) is either 5M and 4+m, or 6+M? You have three bids to show both majors (1H, 1S, and 2H), which seems like a lot (but perhaps is a good idea). I personally think it is valuable being able to overcall with 1M on a lot of hands. Overcalling at the two-level is more preemptive, but it is also harder for you to find the right spot. A hand type which is unclear how you handle is 4M and 5+m, perhaps that could be the use of your 1D overcall?

 

You seem aware of the fact that 1m is seldom passed, but you do not include any kind of opening strength hand in your second hand pass. It can be risky to do so, but it is an option.

 

Some changes which I think would improve you structure:

 

Pass = Could be clubs which doesn't want to bid 2NT. Could be a weak NT, which can double for take-out (if it seems right) later.

Dbl = "Power double", 15+ hcp.

1D = 4M and 5+ minor.

1M = 5+ major.

1NT = Take-out of the suit they opened, about 10-14 hcp.

2D = 5+H and 4(+)S.

2M = Weakish.

 

Here's what I personally play (based on Woolsey's Grunt defense, with some modifications):

 

Pass = Could be a normal 1NT overcall.

Dbl = Take-out, at least 4-3 in the majors and at least 2 cards in the minor they didn't open. Could also be a hand too strong for a normal overcall.

1D = Natural. May be 5+D and 4M, even though we have the 1NT overcall, if the diamonds are strong and the major is weak.

1M = Natural.

1NT = 4M and 5+m.

2C = Natural.

2D = Weak with hearts, or constructive with 5-5 majors.

2H = Weak with both majors. At least 5-4 either way.

2S = Weak.

2NT = Constructive with 5-5 hearts + minor.

3m = Constructive, but limited, with 5-5 spades + the minor.

 

When they open 1D we do not have a bid to show diamonds, so we have to pass with that hand.

 

A tweak which I think could be nice is to make both 2m bids natural, since that sequence is pretty awkard for third seat. Then 1D could show both majors and 2H would be weak. I think that's less suited vs 1D openings though.

 

Thanks Kungsgeten.....Nice response....Just three comments before I sit down and study it more in depth...

 

1) Regarding the goal of this method, here it is : "can I expand the Hello system Responses to also cover short Club and short Diamond openings with the extra room those two openings give me ?". Perhaps this is a fool's errand and I will abandon the idea ultimately....I have only been playing around with it for a few weeks.

 

Regarding the NT overcall range; I play 99% of my games in Matchpoint ( not Imps or Team games), so I don't mind the aggressive 1NT overcall and not particular afraid of the penalty double......been using 13-17 overcall range for a couple years now and I just haven't been hurt by the opponents with any great frequency...15-18 range or 15-17 range 1NT overcalls would seem to be pretty low probability occurrences...I think I read a long time ago, the odds of opening 1NT with 15-17 was somewhere around 15% (?). and the odds of overcalling 1NT given your RHO has already opened, would seemingly be even lower.....As an aside, playing Precision, a bid I liked a lot in Matchpoint was to open 1NT with 9-15 HCP in 3rd seat after 2 passes with favorable vulnerability, when no other bid seemed better---lots of tops here but wife didn't like the bid, so we stopped.

 

A couple people have mentioned 2nd hand Passing as a bid that could have multi-meanings.......I will think more on it.....

 

Thanks to everyone else as well....

[Cyberyeti]

We play 2nd hand passing then making a bid that would normally show openers suit does except in the UCB situation.

 

So 1♣(2+)-P-1♥-P-1N-? 2N would be the minors, 2♥ would be the blacks, X would be t/o of ♥ with clubs in the picture.

 

Do you modify your responses to the very wide range 1N, we used to play a wide range 1N opener and overcall and had to heavily modify them to make it work.

[Shugart23]

Do you modify your responses to the very wide range 1N, we used to play a wide range 1N opener and overcall and had to heavily modify them to make it work

 

We used to play Precision with our NT range being 10-12/13 in 1st and 2nd seat and 13-15 (in 3rd or 4th seat)......we have been playing a version of Blue Team Club last 3 years and 1NT range is 13-15. We started with Rexford's MCIS system and put in our own tweaks.

 

When we had the 'crazy' 1NT opening using 9-15 HCP range (3rd seat white and them red), we had to bid naturally after that due to ACBL rules.....Our overcall range currently is 13-17 and we don't modify anything; all systems on including lebensohl

 

 

BTW, are there any other canapé bidders out there? Sometimes it would be nice to have discussion with them on topics.

[Kungsgeten]

If you like the Hello-bids, and play canapé, then perhaps you can use the 1M overcalls as your opening bids:

 

(1m)-1M = 4M and longer side suit. Both majors possible.

[Kungsgeten]

BTW, are there any other canapé bidders out there? Sometimes it would be nice to have discussion with them on topics.

 

Send a message to PrecisionL, he's a big canapé fan with a lot of experience and system knowledge.

[Shugart23]

If you like the Hello-bids, and play canapé, then perhaps you can use the 1M overcalls as your opening bids:

 

(1m)-1M = 4M and longer side suit. Both majors possible.

 

 

That might actually be fun to try...I can see it now, overcalling 1S holding the 3,6,7,9 ! ( I have opened 1S with worse holdings countless times)..

 

Actually, you now have me thinking. If Opponent opens short Club and I don't have 16 HCP, Opponent hasn't taken away any of my bidding room....I wonder if in 2nd seat I were to add an imaginary King (for Rule of 20 purposes), perhaps I just then make my normal canapé bid and my partner makes her normal responses (subtracting 3 HCP from her hand)....I wonder if this would be a recipe for disaster....In this, I would still have to define what a Pass means and a Double means.......Maybe I will give it a try sometime or look at some hand records and try to deduce how bad or good it could be...Since I have never heard of anything like this, I suspect it may not be very sound, but might be interesting to see

[Kungsgeten]

That might actually be fun to try...I can see it now, overcalling 1S holding the 3,6,7,9 ! ( I have opened 1S with worse holdings countless times)..

 

Actually, you now have me thinking. If Opponent opens short Club and I don't have 16 HCP, Opponent hasn't taken away any of my bidding room....I wonder if in 2nd seat I were to add an imaginary King (for Rule of 20 purposes), perhaps I just then make my normal canapé bid and my partner makes her normal responses (subtracting 3 HCP from her hand)....I wonder if this would be a recipe for disaster....In this, I would still have to define what a Pass means and a Double means.......Maybe I will give it a try sometime or look at some hand records and try to deduce how bad or good it could be...Since I have never heard of anything like this, I suspect it may not be very sound, but might be interesting to see

 

I've seen several players play "system on" over a short club. I think it is a viable (and easy) option. Double then usually means "I would have opened 1 club!", so strong in your case?

[Shugart23]

I've seen several players play "system on" over a short club. I think it is a viable (and easy) option. Double then usually means "I would have opened 1 club!", so strong in your case?

 

We are going to try it...I need to find out if the new ACBL rules will allow me to overcall 1S holding 2,3,4,5 of Spades but I don't offhand see why not.....(I assume partner will need to alert my 1M overcall). I am chatting with Ken Rexford now just so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. He tell me that he has done this with several partners but apparently with a few tweaks.

 

Yes, 1C is strong for us......we actually evolved from Precision to canapé because I just didn't like being constrained to having to have a 5 card Major to open 1M. I also didn't like the frequency of opening 1D only to hear opponents overcall 1M...so now I am able to open 1M first with horrible holdings in the suit (often times the opponent's 5 card suit) which can cause Opponents to have all kinds of difficulty with their bidding, penalty doubles and negative doubles. (It is especially fun when I get overcalled in my hidden 5 card+ suit).

 

 

It was a difficult 6 months to fully make the transition as the mindset and nuances are quite different, but now I don't think we will ever go back to 5 card Majors.

[dokoko]

IMO any method not including follow-ups is incomplete.

 

One of the best methods vs. a nebulous 1m opening is to ignore the fact that opener might be short in his "suit" and act as over a natural opening. This has the advantage of retaining your defined follow-ups including raises, cuebids etc. It isn't easy to improve on that.

 

When you redefine a bid, you have to look at how to bid hands that used the bid in the past. This is easy for a cuebid or Unusual NT (just bid one of your suits naturally), but not so easy for a responsive cuebid: (1♦)dbl-2♦ suggests both majors; how do you bid such a hand if 2♦ is defined as natural here? If virtually all bids of opp's "suit" become natural, how do you bid without cuebids?

 

Even a takeout double must be reconsidered. If your double only suggests the majors how can you bid reasonable minor contracts lacking a major fit? How do you bid hands with 43 in the majors and 51 in the minors?

 

IMO you need to address the concept of "Replacement Cuebids". For example, you might play (1♣)1♥-2♣ as natural and (1♣)1♥-1NT as one-round force, asking about the strength of the overcall.

 

You should also plan how to act when responder takes part in the auction; this is a real possibility. You should have clear rules to determine whether a bid of an opponent's suit is natural or a cuebid. Even if you decided to act as over a natural 1m opening you may bid opener's suit naturally once responder has delivered a suit to cuebid.

 

There are sensible concepts available on the web (you may search for "Grunt Defense" on bridgewinners.com or look into the material on bridgematters.com).

 

I like to play a method I call "partial transfers" when advancing partner's overcall. When partner overcalls a natural opening bid, the cuebid and higher bids are transfers to the next suit where the transfer to partner's suit is an inv+ raise. When partner overcalls a nebulous opening bid, the transfers start at 1NT.

 

Vs. a nebulous 1♦ we use a 1NT overcall to show hands with a 4cd major and a longer minor (any combination). Other bids (including 2♦) are as over a natural 1♦, dbl suggesting short ♦. We pass with long diamonds or a strong NT

 

This method is also playable over 1♣, but we try to improve on that as follows:

(1♣)dbl guarantees 3+ clubs and shows [a] takeout of diamonds strong NT [c] natural clubs [d] any strong hand with 3+ clubs - advancer may ask with 1♦ or bid naturally.

(1♣)1♦ is a limited takeout of clubs (nonforcing) - later club bids are cues.

(1♣)1NT is a strong hand with short clubs (usually takeout) - advancer may ask with 2♣ (forcing to 2NT) or bid 2♦♥♠ nonforcing.

(1♣)2♦ is a good overcall.

Other bids are unchanged.

 

As suggested by Kungsgeten, over 1♣ you can obviously play system on. I am not sure, however, whether this is a good idea. There is good reason why overcalls and follow-up are not the same as openings and follow-up. I would prefer partner to lead my minor after (1♣)1♥(1♠)-(2♠)-(4♠) when my overcall is on ♥xxxx. Defensive bidding should cater for the possibiity that I might make only one bid.

 

When responder passes, this usually suggests length in the bid minor. Therefore I think you should reopen as over a natural opening.

[Shugart23]

I've seen several players play "system on" over a short club. I think it is a viable (and easy) option. Double then usually means "I would have opened 1 club!", so strong in your case?

 

Update :

 

So, partner and I are having a ton of fun now, playing our canape system over all non strong 1C bids....Bidding a crappy 4 card Spade suit I get doubled and run to my good 5 card Diamond suit, as one example that happened the other day (us white, them red)

 

It's still an experiment , but having amazing success and frustrating my opponents.....

 

We lose out on a lead directing over-call, but the fun is worth it (so far)…..