Dodgy responsive double?

[el mister]

I was sitting S in the following sequence (MPs) and over RHO's spade rebid saw fit to make a responsive double which took us to a bad place. Does this bid basically deny four hearts, given pard has almost certainly shown 4+ of them? Felt like a flexible bid at the time but pard took it to be very minor-orientated.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st5haq52djt54cqt3&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1sp1nd2sd]133|200[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

Is partner never going to do this with a 1345 ? Are you expected to overcall 2♥ with a 9-10 count and 5 hearts ?

 

Several things influence what this double shows.

[FelicityR]

...but pard took it to be very minor-orientated.

 

Why? 2NT looks a logical bid to indicate minors here, not double. If you are sitting with ♠ over the opener, and with both opponents bidding you hardly want to try to play in 2NT for 110. The opponents could well be going down -2 here if you held ♠s after partner has doubled.

[apollo1201]

In a more usual 1S X 2S sequence, X would be a good call with your hand, planning to take out any minor suit bid by partner to Hs, showing more than a direct 3H that could be purely competitive with a H more and as little as 5 HCPs.

Here, I think it should be penalty-oriented.

Nevertheless, you could still take out partner minor bid to Hs.

[Cyberyeti]

In a more usual 1S X 2S sequence, X would be a good call with your hand, planning to take out any minor suit bid by partner to Hs, showing more than a direct 3H that could be purely competitive with a H more and as little as 5 HCPs.

Here, I think it should be penalty-oriented.

Nevertheless, you could still take out partner minor bid to Hs.

 

Not if you play lebensohl here as many people do so you have 2 3♥ bids and now X can be responsive.

[ahydra]

"Standard" is, IIRC, for responsive doubles after opps bid one suit to show the two suits of the other rank (here both minors). I've never understood this, given that partner will, fairly often, have just three in the other major for a 1-level takeout double, and prefer to use responsive X to show something like this - exactly 4 cards in the unbid major(s) with a second place to play.

 

That said, 2NT would also normally be 2P2P here, so X could be used as penalty-oriented; or, probably more useful when partner is an unpassed hand, showing a bit more strength than going via 2NT. Quite a lot of subtlety (that's probably not worth the memory strain).

 

ahydra

[wank]

i'd play x as penalties.

 

with hearts, bid hearts. if you start with an amorphous double (where available) it's much harder for partner to bid game. getting to game is more important than getting to the right partscore.

[cherdano]

I know this used to be penalty in standard, but I think that's too rare to be really useful. Assuming you aren't as old-fashioned as wank :) it is quite common for responsive X to deny four hearts, but it's equally common for it to include hands with four hearts - I think this is something every partnership has to discuss.

 

Best IMO is for 2NT to be hearts and a minor, and for X to be responsive without 4 hearts. If you play Lebensohl, I would prefer for X to include hands with 4 hearts - then partner can bid 2N to show four heart, and bid 3m without.

 

In an analogous auction where the opponents have hearts, life is very different of course - IMO here you have to bid 2S over 2H with four of them.

[Phil]

Old fashioned here too. Double is penalty and Im perfectly happy to bid 2N as two places.

[apollo1201]

Sorry to be confusing (and confused too!), but as regards those Lebensohl-type responses or 2NT 2 places, are they not supposed to be in place when we are « forced » to bid?

Here it is a free bid and we genuinely could have some 10-11 HCPs with a stopper (eg HCP split 11–6-12 or sth like that between the other hands) where a penalty X or natural 2NT are useful having.

If I have a suit or Hs, don’t I just bid it? Which shows some values (or a long suit) since I could leave opener with his 2S.