Count signals from four small

[plaur]

What is the correct card to play from four small when giving a COUNT signal using standard carding?

 

BBO/Explore/Learn to play/signal lesson says signal loudest card, but in BIL teaching sessions i have heard to play the 7 (second highest)

 

What is the correct card to play second time around and why?

 

9753 first 9 or 7, next 3 or 5?

 

Would it be any different from another combo say 5432?

[Walddk]

Example 1: 7 followed by 5.

Example 2: 4 followed by 3, alternatively 5 followed by 4 or 3.

 

When giving std count from 4 the second card should not be the lowest. That would indicate a doubleton.

 

Roland

[EricK]

Normally when signalling with a high card you should play the highest card you can afford.

 

What this means is that you often use the second highest from four because you may need to keep the highest.

 

Eric

[Double !]

Is it possible that there are two issues being combined into one here?

 

Playing attitude signals first, one would typically play the lowest card to indicate low interest in the suit led by someone else. (aasuming standard signals)

 

You might want to double-check with BIL regarding playing the second highest. Is it possible that they were referring to what card to play should you decide to lead this suit yourself as opposed to signaling when someone else leads the suit?

[whereagles]

Although 2nd highest is the book card for an even signal (helps distinguishing 2 from 4), I usually play the top card if I can spare it. Better to have pard realize I have an EVEN nr. than nor having him noticing at all.. lol.

[plaur]

Is it possible that there are two issues being combined into one here?

 

You might want to double-check with BIL regarding playing the second highest. 

Its highly likely ive mixed up some stuff :-) I play basic ACOL/UDCA live, trying to learn SAYC/std for online.

 

For me BIL(BeginnerIntermediateLounge) teaching has been attending random free sessions rather than following one teacher. There are many great teachers and session-types. The beauty of this is that you learn that bridge is many ways and that not all experts agree on style and system :-)

[Walddk]

... and that not all experts agree on style and system :-)

Thank goodness no. Then there would be no need for this Forum :-)

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

I never understood the second highest principle. You play the highest you can afford. Sometimes this is the top card, sometimes this is the third highest.

[Gerben42]

I play the same way as Justin: play as high as you can afford. From 9752 that is likely to be either the 7, or the 9. From 5432 defenitely the 5.

 

Reason: If you have 5432 and partner is missing one other spot card (say the 7 but it doesn't matter) the 4 could be from:

5432

854

42

 

Some "length" signal! The 5 is unambiguously even length as it cannot be from 3 cards.

[whereagles]

Justin: I think the 2nd highest is meant to help you distinguish a doubleton from 4.

 

If pard signals with what you can see is the top spot card, then chances are he will have 2. If he held 4, he could perhaps have spared the 2nd best card.

 

But, in any case, after the 20 000 hands or so I played, I never found this to be an important issue :)

[Guest Jlall]

It doesn't help clarify a doubleton vs 4 unless you have the agreement to always play second highest.

 

Besides, there are almost no situations where partner cannot work out whether you have 4 or 2 from the bidding and previous plays unless its at trick 1 (in which case vs suit, you should be giving attitude anyways from 4 small so he doesn't think you want a ruff).

[mike777]

It doesn't help clarify a doubleton vs 4 unless you have the agreement to always play second highest.

 

Besides, there are almost no situations where partner cannot work out whether you have 4 or 2 from the bidding and previous plays unless its at trick 1 (in which case vs suit, you should be giving attitude anyways from 4 small so he doesn't think you want a ruff).

Awww shucks!

 

Of course 99.9% of time you should be giving attitude in these situations, not count.

[Double !]

which leads to another interesting question...

After you have given your attitude signal, what meanings do people give to the sequence in which they play their remaining cards in the suit. For example, is next card an initial count, a remaining count, an o/e, a Lav/ suit preferance, or what. Curious to know how different people play this. (for now please omit references to Prism signals--lolololol)

 

Thanx

DHL

[mike777]

Most other non forced cards, including how you play trump suit are suit preference.

Count is very rare. Many play first discard as O/E.

[whereagles]

It doesn't help clarify a doubleton vs 4 unless you have the agreement to always play second highest.

 

Besides, there are almost no situations where partner cannot work out whether you have 4 or 2 from the bidding and previous plays unless its at trick 1 (in which case vs suit, you should be giving attitude anyways from 4 small so he doesn't think you want a ruff).

1. Well, most textbooks I read advocate count with 2nd highest because of this clarification issue.

 

2. It is indeed usually simple from the bidding and play to know whether count is from 4 or 2. Which is why I said it hardly matters which card you choose to signal :)

[PriorKnowledge]

Some simple rules of signalling:

1. Never signal with a card that could be a trick

2. Signal with the highest card you can afford

3. Use your head - Partner's card may not be a signal. There is no signal that says, "Don't do something stupid"

 

From 9753, you would normally signal count with the 7. The 9 may be useful. From the 9832, you would signal even with 9. The 8 would deny the 9.

 

I have never READ that you signal even a special way so partner can differentiate 2 cards from 4 cards or that a low even signal is count but a higher signal is attitude rather than count, although I have heard pseudo-experts say these things. (Pseuo-experts have a whole bunch of silly rules).

[Stephen Tu]

I am fairly certain that I have seen in print in books by Kantar, Woolsey, and Root reference to signaling second highest from 4 to help distinguish it from 2. I think they qualify as not being "pseudo-experts".

 

But I agree that I can't remember it mattering. (Then again I play upside down 90+% of the time).