bidding question

[cencio]

How to bid 5 aces with q

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq2ha73da73ca94&w=s8hj982dj982cqjt3&n=sj543hkq65dkq54c2&e=st976ht4dt6ck8765&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp2np3cp3dp4cp4sp4np]399|300[/hv]

[barmar]

5♥ and 5♠ show 2 or 5 key cards, without and with the queen respectively.

[cencio]

5♥ and 5♠ show 2 or 5 key cards, without and with the queen respectively.

Someone says to use 5 club after a 2nt open as 5 aces+Q instead of 0 Aces

[pescetom]

Someone says to use 5 club after a 2nt open as 5 aces+Q instead of 0 Aces

 

It sounds like a silly complication to me, the convention already handles 5 KeyCards+Q.

But what's most important is to agree all this stuff with your partner.

For instance your 4♣ bid could have many meanings, and even the assumption that 4NT is Roman KeyCard for the last suit bid is far from universal.

[barmar]

Someone says to use 5 club after a 2nt open as 5 aces+Q instead of 0 Aces

I assume you mean it shows either 3 aces or 5+Q, instead of 0/3 aces.

 

That's a reasonable agreement, but I don't think it's considered a standard part of RKCB. So you would need to discuss it with partner first.

[Vampyr]

Someone says to use 5 club after a 2nt open as 5 aces+Q instead of 0 Aces

 

I am not sure the merits of this approach compensate sufficiently for the memory load. Consistency may be the hobgoblin etc, but it also has advantages!

 

I am also not sure that rightsiding is important enough to waste either or both 4m bids for responder to show both majors. LOL I play Kokish, so declarer in a major suit is predetermined!

[cencio]

How to bid 5 aces with q

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq2ha73da73ca94&w=s8hj982dj982cqjt3&n=sj543hkq65dkq54c2&e=st976ht4dt6ck8765&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp2np3cp3dp4cp4sp4np]399|300[/hv]

The question is how to bid 7 spade

[Cyberyeti]

I think there's something to be said particularly if not playing voidwood and where opener as in this case can't have a void for using 5N for this. It's very unlikely after a 2N opener that responder won't know if opener has 2 or 5 (particularly if Blackwood was his best option), but it's just possible if not playing voidwood.

 

Also note 5+Q = 21 points, so that's basically all you can have for a 2N rather than 2♣ then 2N.

[Vampyr]

I think there's something to be said particularly if not playing voidwood and where opener as in this case can't have a void for using 5N for this. It's very unlikely after a 2N opener that responder won't know if opener has 2 or 5 (particularly if Blackwood was his best option), but it's just possible if not playing voidwood.

 

Also note 5+Q = 21 points, so that's basically all you can have for a 2N rather than 2♣ then 2N.

 

It’s not super obvious to me how you would manage voidwood in this auction.

[Vampyr]

For instance your 4♣ bid could have many meanings, and even the assumption that 4NT is Roman KeyCard for the last suit bid is far from universal.

 

Well, a fit has been found, so it is very reasonable.

[Cyberyeti]

It’s not super obvious to me how you would manage voidwood in this auction.

 

I was talking generally, our auction would be 2N-3♣-3♦-3♥-3♠ to show what took their auction till 4♠ to show, now 5m would be voidwood.

[neilkaz]

The question is how to bid 7 spade

Easy to bid 7♠ after the 5♠ response and North can count on 11 top tricks and 2♣ ruffs even after a trump lead and 4-1 split. If South has fewer than 3 ♣ then he will have 4 cards in a red suit and you can hope that a red suit will behave to provide a 4th trick.

[ahydra]

I guess the worry is that 5S might get passed if responder thinks you're off 3 keycards, but hopefully he realises that isn't possible, as AQ J J AKQJ is only 18 HCP. But, opener doesn't know what responder's honours are... perhaps try 5NT?

 

ahydra

[rmnka447]

If the 5 ♠ response is 2 or 5 plus the queen, it shouldn't be passed.

 

If responder figures out the missing honors besides the As and ♠ K (i.e. keycards), it will be found these are ♠ Q ♥ J ♦ J ♣ KQJ which total up to 10 points. Of these, the ♠ Q is known because of the response. But adding any 2 key cards to these points only gets you to a maximum 18 HCP not enough for a 2 NT opener. So logic tells you opener must have at least 3 keycards to open 2 NT and, therefore, must have 5 plus the Queen.

[pes_6]

simple 5♠

[PhilG007]

How to bid 5 aces with q

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq2ha73da73ca94&w=s8hj982dj982cqjt3&n=sj543hkq65dkq54c2&e=st976ht4dt6ck8765&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=pp2np3cp3dp4cp4sp4np]399|300[/hv]

 

Which suit is trumps? I can follow the bidding up to a point 3♣ was Stayman,3♦ denied a major. but I can see South has a four card spade suit(!)

What does 4♣ mean? I need enlightenment. This game is getting far too damn technical http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif I also note from the lie of the cards in the diagram that 6♠ and 6NT are

doomed to failure. So N/S are really on a hiding to nothing http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[manudude03]

Which suit is trumps? I can follow the bidding up to a point 3♣ was Stayman,3♦ denied a major. but I can see South has a four card spade suit(!)

What does 4♣ mean? I need enlightenment. This game is getting far too damn technical http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif I also note from the lie of the cards in the diagram that 6♠ and 6NT are

doomed to failure. So N/S are really on a hiding to nothing http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

3C was presumably puppet stayman, so 3D says he does have a 4 card major. Not sure what 4C was meant as, probably asking for preference (though 4D usually asks for that). 7S is an excellent contract and does make on the lie of the cards (so does 6NT, but that's a little tougher to see).

[Tramticket]

As already stated, the standard RKCB responses of 5♥/5♠ show 5 key cards (and the response obviously can't be 2 aces, given the auction). In my view it should be extremely rare for a hand with zero aces to want to take control and ask for aces. Our auction would start in the same way as Cyberyeti (2N-3♣-3♦-3♥-3♠) and then North might cue-bid the second round club control, but I think that a simple invitational raise to 5♠ shows this hand rather well.

[nekthen]

4♣ and 4♦ both show 4-4 majors generally 4♣ shows slam interest and 4♦ is weak

A basic tenet of using RKCB is that the response can never be ambiguous. If that is possible, you do not know enough about the hand to be launching a slam investigation

[PhilG007]

3C was presumably puppet stayman, so 3D says he does have a 4 card major. Not sure what 4C was meant as, probably asking for preference (though 4D usually asks for that). 7S is an excellent contract and does make on the lie of the cards (so does 6NT, but that's a little tougher to see).

 

From the diagram, I find it hard to see how 7♠ can make Its difficult to see how declarer can avoid at least one loser

 

 

[GrahamJson]

The bidding so far doesn’t correspond to any methods that I have come across before, but I’m assuming that somehow spades are agreed. If so I don’t see a problem with making the agreed method bid of 5S. Clearly if you held the two key card option then 5S would be one off in top tricks, in which case partner shouldn’t have gone beyond 4S in the first place. If you really are concerned about being passed out in 5S then there can’t be much wrong with just bidding 7S direct. It’s difficult to picture a hand in which partner is going slamming and seven isn’t a good contract opposite AKQ A A A. What more could you possibly have?

[smerriman]

I also note from the lie of the cards in the diagram that 6♠ and 6NT aredoomed to failure. So N/S are really on a hiding to nothing http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

From the diagram, I find it hard to see how 7♠ can make Its difficult to see how declarer can avoid at least one loser

6NT shouldn't be too hard to see. Duck a club, then play your club (throwing a spade) and four spades. West has to throw a red card, which gives you your 12th trick.

 

Having seen that, play 7♠ in exactly the same way, except reverse the first two tricks. Win the club, play a club ("throwing" a spade).

 

(In fact, you can just ruff two clubs, without even needing the squeeze, hah.)

[msjennifer]

To me it’s unthinkable to find a hand holds no zkey card and not even the Q of trumps will ask a RKC enquiry when it should be the person holding all 5of the keycards.Any how, the 5 H /5S replies show 2/5 keycards without/with the Queen. And this is very logical and simple to understand except the novices and very rarely a few beginners

[nekthen]

From the diagram, I find it hard to see how 7♠ can make Its difficult to see how declarer can avoid at least one loser

 

Ruff 2♣ A♣ 4♠ 3♦ 3♥ 13

[pescetom]

Well, a fit has been found, so it is very reasonable.

 

North sees the fit but he has not informed South, and as I said it is not universal to play 4NT as RKCB showing fit in the last suit bid. Some systems play it as plain Blackwood for 4 Aces in absence of a confirmed fit, some play it as RKCB for the first suit bid, some play it as a fit-showing quantitative slam-try. We play it as fit-showing RKCB only under duress from opponents, otherwise the suit must be fixed before either RKCB or control-bids.

But I agree that fit-showing RKCB is common and would be a reasonable guess with a pickup partner.