By-passing 5cM to show support for other major

[el mister]

Playing 2/1, or any natural 5cM system I guess - Holding a weak-ish hand with 5 spades and 3 hearts, 5-3-4-1 or 5-3-3-2 say, 6-9 pts, pard opens 1H.

 

What is standard here - support with 2H, or show spades with 1S? Is it 100% clear, or a judgement call on suit quality, overall shape of your hand etc?

 

Inspired by a diasterous 1H - 2H - 4H auction that failed on the lie of the cards, when 4S was cold on our 9 card spade fit that neither of us bid!

[fromageGB]

Bid your 4 card 1♠. OH, you have 5?

 

It depends a little on what partner does with a strong hand, if you are 6-7 rather than 8-9. If your methods are that he jumps uncontrollably, with a weak hand, raise partner instead. If he uses say Gazzilli, a 1♠ weak is safe because you can sign off in 2♥ over the artificial 2♣.

[gordontd]

Playing 2/1, or any natural 5cM system I guess - Holding a weak-ish hand with 5 spades and 3 hearts, 5-3-4-1 or 5-3-3-2 say, 6-9 pts, pard opens 1H.

 

What is standard here - support with 2H, or show spades with 1S? Is it 100% clear, or a judgement call on suit quality, overall shape of your hand etc?

 

Inspired by a diasterous 1H - 2H - 4H auction that failed on the lie of the cards, when 4S was cold on our 9 card spade fit that neither of us bid!

In 5cM systems it's usual to raise rather than introduce a new suit. The reason is because you have a problem to describe your hand accurately if partner rebids 1NT.

 

Why couldn't your partner rebid 2S rather than 4H?

[apollo1201]

In 5cM systems it's usual to raise rather than introduce a new suit. The reason is because you have a problem to describe your hand accurately if partner rebids 1NT.

 

Same reasoning applies if partner rebids 2m. Now 2❤️ is just a mere preference (often with a doubleton). That could prevent partner from trying to go to game, not aware that a fit exists.

 

There could be some merits in « hiding » your fit if your hand is very weak (but if opponents jump in the auction, partner will never be in a position to assess if he can bid 3❤️), but generally it is better to fit which will often be the info partner needs.

 

As your poor fate in 4❤️, partner could probably bid 2S to investigate a 44 fit (45 in that case) rather than a 53 if he is committed to go to game anyway.

[pescetom]

In 5cM systems it's usual to raise rather than introduce a new suit.

It's far from automatic, some systems require you to introduce the new ♠ suit at 1 level.

The important thing is to follow a clearly described system and to be on the same wavelength as your partner.

 

The reason is because you have a problem to describe your hand accurately if partner rebids 1NT.

I don't see this problem with a hand like the one described. In a natural system a 1♠ response is unlimited and forcing, the 1NT rebid is non-forcing showing a balanced or semi-balanced shape and about 12-14 HCP. Responder with 6-9 HCP knows that game is not on and will either Pass or bid 2♥ over which the opener will pass.

 

Why couldn't your partner rebid 2S rather than 4H?

Perhaps because they assign an artificial meaning to a new suit after 1♥ 2♥, such as a Trial Bid.

This makes sense if the 2♥ bid denies ♠.

[FelicityR]

There's more factors than just suit quality, overall shape, etc. that need to be factored in. Such as: have you already passed, and in what position has your partner opened, and are the opponents the type to make aggressive overcalls at favourable vulnerability? Etc.

[gordontd]

This makes sense if the 2♥ bid denies ♠.

It doesn't sound as thought it did for them! As you say, you need to play the same system as your partner.

[el mister]

In 5cM systems it's usual to raise rather than introduce a new suit. The reason is because you have a problem to describe your hand accurately if partner rebids 1NT.

 

Why couldn't your partner rebid 2S rather than 4H?

Yes, that was an obvious blunder not to bid 2S, but it got me thinking about the 2H bid so just wanted to ask as a sanity check.

[thawp66]

It’s not necessarily an “obvious blunder” to not bid 2S when your parter was always bidding game. On all the hands that he bids 2S and you wind up in the normal 4H contract, the opponents will know more about declarers hand than without the 2S call. On some % of hands this will lead to a better defense and less tricks for you. Is this worth finding a possibly better 4S contract? Something to consider. 😀

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

if you cant clarify, that you have primary support for partners suit at your 2nd bid,

show it direct.

This is independ from playing 4 / 5 card major systems.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[msjennifer]

A lot depends upon the exact holdings .Generally speaking,if your hand warrants only one bid then bid 2H.If it warrants two bids then show your spade suit as it can be shown at Just the one level.I ,personally,can’t pass comment unless the full hand is available

[SelfGovern]

I'd like to see the actual hand, because we don't all have the same definition of "6-9 points".

 

My expectation is that with only one bid, responder raises the major directly. To fail to do so will tend to show no more than two hearts in auctions like

1H - 1S;

1N - 2H

 

or

 

1H - 1S;

2C - 2H

 

And often this discourages partner from making a game try with a big hand, or bidding 3H in a contested auction.

[Phil]

If you have a one bid hand make ONE BID.

[helene_t]

As SelfGovern says,

1H-1S

2c-2H*

 

may sound a bit weaker than a direct raise (and it could be made a doubleton) so you'll have to ask yourself if you can show your values adequately without raising hearts directly. With six points you may be ok but with nine it is probably better to raise straight away.

 

Also, if p opens in first seat at w/w at matchpoints, there's a good chance that opps will have bid 3m before your second turn, and you may be stretching too much by then showing your support at the 3-level. Then it will be better to raise straight away so partner can decide whether to compete to the 3-level.

 

It is good to discuss this with partner. You may agree that you should still be looking for a spades fit after the auction starts 1H-2H.

[miamijd]

As SelfGovern says,

1H-1S

2c-2H*

 

may sound a bit weaker than a direct raise (and it could be made a doubleton) so you'll have to ask yourself if you can show your values adequately without raising hearts directly. With six points you may be ok but with nine it is probably better to raise straight away.

 

Also, if p opens in first seat at w/w at matchpoints, there's a good chance that opps will have bid 3m before your second turn, and you may be stretching too much by then showing your support at the 3-level. Then it will be better to raise straight away so partner can decide whether to compete to the 3-level.

 

It is good to discuss this with partner. You may agree that you should still be looking for a spades fit after the auction starts 1H-2H.

 

2H here not only could be a doubleton, it IS a doubleton. If it can show 2 OR 3, then there is no good way for opener to evaluate his hand sufficiently to know whether to go on with a 15-bad 17 count.

 

This is why you have to raise hearts with 3 and not bid 1s, unless you have a hand strong enough to either invite game (by bidding 3H) or force game (by bidding fourth suit or 4H) at your second turn.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[xbabarx]

I like to show support in majors as soon as possible

[fromageGB]

2H here not only could be a doubleton, it IS a doubleton. If it can show 2 OR 3, then there is no good way for opener to evaluate his hand sufficiently to know whether to go on with a 15-bad 17 count.

 

Mike

This is the big problem with a wide-ranging opener rebid : it forces (as evidenced by most posters here) responder to not describe their hand. If you played rebids that distinguished strength, you would be delighted to find the spade fit if there is one, and if not, let partner know you have that 15 to bad 17 to let him make the contract decision.

[miamijd]

This is the big problem with a wide-ranging opener rebid : it forces (as evidenced by most posters here) responder to not describe their hand. If you played rebids that distinguished strength, you would be delighted to find the spade fit if there is one, and if not, let partner know you have that 15 to bad 17 to let him make the contract decision.

 

And just how do you do that without getting too high when partner has a poor hand?

[RD350LC]

If you have a one bid hand make ONE BID.

I agree. In this case, with a 5=3=3=2 hand, I would bid 2 ♥.

[fromageGB]

And just how do you do that without getting too high when partner has a poor hand?

I play Gazzill on 15+. Bidding starts 1M 1NT, or 1♥ 1♠. If opener rebids 2♣ it says nothing about clubs, but shows 15+hcp. (Depending on how you want to play Gazzilli you might also include a 12-14 hand with 4 clubs, which will always rebid 2M to show that hand.) Over 2♣, responder with 8+ hcp will always bid a 2♦ relay. Without that 8 hcp responder makes the most sensible bid to play, which could be 3m on a long suit, but will commonly be 2M.

 

Over the 2♦ relay I play that an opener rebid at the 2-level is 15/16 (passable) and 17+ will bid naturally at the 3-level GF.

 

Gazzilli is 15+, 16+, or even 17+ in the original style, but I like to have a 15 boundary.

 

There are other opener rebids >2♣, but these show specific hands, such as 3m being a 14-16 passable 5-5 shape.

 

Playing Gazzilli, you do not get high unless the mutual strength for it exists. Of course if the bidding does go 1♥ 1♠, 2♣ 2♥ (rather than 2♦) there is nothing to stop opener bidding game on a 20 count, but he knows responder is just 6/7 hcp (or perhaps weaker with support if you include that option in a forcing 1NT).

[Kungsgeten]

We play the following: when responder has hearts support he only introduces the spade suit if he has game forcing values. So if we have a simple raise, or a limit raise (even if just a three card limit raise), we bypass the spade suit. I think the bidding becomes much more comfortable with this agreement; it's easier to play!

 

An upside to this agreement is sequences like these:

 

1H-1S; 1NT-2H = Could show 2 hearts and 5 spades, looking for the right part score.

 

1H-1S; 1NT/2m-3H = Game forcing with 3 hearts and good 5+ spades.

[WGF_Flame]

support with supprt unless the chances of slam are good enough