CAPTYOGI 's CLUB

[captyogi]

Dear Brothers,

I wish to play appended System.

If I will be allowed to Play ?

1C ( 18+) – 1D ( 7+ Game Zone )

1C ( 18+ ) – 1H ( 0 to 4 Artificial )

1C ( 18+ ) – 1S ( 5 to 6 HCP Artificial )

1C ( 18+ ) – 1NT / 2C/D/H/S ( Slamish Natural )

1C ( 18+ ) – 1H/S – 1NT ( Opener has No 6 card suit ) Bidding to progress as if Opened 1NT.

1C ( 18+ ) – 1H/S – 2C/D/H/S ( 6 Card Suit 18-20 HCP )

1C ( 18+ ) – 1H/S – 2NT ( 21+ HCP ) Bidding to Progress as if Opened 2NT.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

1D ( 15-17 ) – 1H ( 10+ HCP , Game Zone, Artificial )

1D ( 15-17 ) – 1S ( 0 to 9 Artificial ) ( Opener to Bid 1NT if No 6 Card Suit , otherwise that Suit )

1D ( 15-17 ) – 1S – 1NT ( Bidding to Progress as if Opened 1NT , including Invitation with 9 HCP )

= = = = = = = = = = = =

1 NT ( 13-14 HCP Balanced C/D can be 5 Cards )

1H/1S ( 11-14 HCP 5 Cards )

2C ( 11-14 HCP 5 C + 4 M or 6 C )

 

Gadgets can be added

 

Thx n Brgds

Yogesh V. Abhyankar

[straube]

At the least this should be legal in the ACBL. Both your 1C and 1D are strong openings and you can use artificial responses.

[awm]

The one question is what you do with 11-14 HCP and no five major. In particular shapes like 4441 and hands with long diamonds 3451, 2263, etc.

 

If the answer is “pass” then that’s fine for legality but a somewhat dubious system on merits. If you open 1NT then you’ll get in trouble for systemically opening 1NT with singletons. If you “just wing it” you get into a disclosure issue.

[captyogi]

The one question is what you do with 11-14 HCP and no five major. In particular shapes like 4441 and hands with long diamonds 3451, 2263, etc.

 

If the answer is “pass” then that’s fine for legality but a somewhat dubious system on merits. If you open 1NT then you’ll get in trouble for systemically opening 1NT with singletons. If you “just wing it” you get into a disclosure issue.

 

Thx. System is in infant stage. Let me think over it.

[msjennifer]

In any system one has to give attention first to major suit fits and then NT and lastly the minors.Mr.Yogesh you are hampering the partner from showing a major suit at the cheapest 1H/S level.This is very undesirable.Playing a 1C opening as 18 plus HCP brings far too many restrictions if the 1H/S response is an artificial one. YTo me it appears that you are fond of playing strong club system.My humble advice to you is to adopt a system like the Blue team club,precision / super precision or The Polish club System.This System appears exactly like the very old Papa-Mama system

[FelicityR]

The one question is what you do with 11-14 HCP and no five major. In particular shapes like 4441 and hands with long diamonds 3451, 2263, etc.

 

If the answer is “pass” then that’s fine for legality but a somewhat dubious system on merits. If you open 1NT then you’ll get in trouble for systemically opening 1NT with singletons. If you “just wing it” you get into a disclosure issue.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read in a bridge article that the Italian system Fantunes open 1NT with a singleton, and even us Brits sometimes venture a weak no-trump opening with a singleton in a minor, too. Not as scary as it looks.

[DozyDom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read in a bridge article that the Italian system Fantunes open 1NT with a singleton, and even us Brits sometimes venture a weak no-trump opening with a singleton in a minor, too. Not as scary as it looks.

I think awm is saying you'll get in trouble with directors since it's given as a balanced hand. Still, just needs a couple of words alteration (or just a tick in a CC box).

[captyogi]

In any system one has to give attention first to major suit fits and then NT and lastly the minors.Mr.Yogesh you are hampering the partner from showing a major suit at the cheapest 1H/S level.This is very undesirable.Playing a 1C opening as 18 plus HCP brings far too many restrictions if the 1H/S response is an artificial one. YTo me it appears that you are fond of playing strong club system.My humble advice to you is to adopt a system like the Blue team club,precision / super precision or The Polish club System.

 

Aim is to determine Level we should reach or we should not cross.

Once Response of 1D is received we know we are in Game Zone.

1H/S are artificial and indicates settle at undergame level.

Not Showing natural H or S at cheapest level is true,

let's see.

Once it is floated in Live Field, changes can be made.

[foobar]

In any system one has to give attention first to major suit fits and then NT and lastly the minors.Mr.Yogesh you are hampering the partner from showing a major suit at the cheapest 1H/S level.This is very undesirable.Playing a 1C opening as 18 plus HCP brings far too many restrictions if the 1H/S response is an artificial one. YTo me it appears that you are fond of playing strong club system.My humble advice to you is to adopt a system like the Blue team club,precision / super precision or The Polish club System.This System appears exactly like the very old Papa-Mama system

If I am not mistaken, the response structure seems similar to Mark Abraham's SCREAM that used responses of 1♥ / 1♠ as any semi-positive / double negative (albeit in a 16+ ♣ context). Perhaps, the OP can draw inspiration from IMPrecision (that uses 1♦ for some GF hands) as well.

[awm]

I think awm is saying you'll get in trouble with directors since it's given as a balanced hand. Still, just needs a couple of words alteration (or just a tick in a CC box).

 

I suspect that opening 1nt with 0472 shape might be viewed as going a bit too far. But of course local regs vary.

[steve2005]

Well against this system i'm overcalling on any sort of shape (including 4432) and will not be disclosing my suit / suits.

You will have to spend a lot of time on covering interference if you decide you want to do this!

[foobar]

Well against this system i'm overcalling on any sort of shape (including 4432) and will not be disclosing my suit / suits.

You will have to spend a lot of time on covering interference if you decide you want to do this!

Hmm...waiting for hrothgar to chime in what he thinks of "13-cards" defences against 1♣. Basically, it's perfectly legal and totally fine if it's truly random, but the ethics of full-disclosure get really tricky because pairs start developing patterns of when they will actually use the defence.

[msjennifer]

If I am not mistaken, the response structure seems similar to Mark Abraham's SCREAM that used responses of 1♥ / 1♠ as any semi-positive / double negative (albeit in a 16+ ♣ context). Perhaps, the OP can draw inspiration from IMPrecision (that uses 1♦ for some GF hands) as well.

 

We call the Abraham system and similar ones,rather jokingly,Papa-Mama system.

[spotlight7]

We call the Abraham system and similar ones,rather jokingly,Papa-Mama system.

 

You might like the Burgay Diamond system.

 

1C=12-14 balanced or 15-17 ubalanced hands.

 

1D=18+

 

If you want to meet ACBL standards, you could bid 1C=15-17 balanced or 15-17 unbalanced.

 

Now 1N would be 12-14HCP

[glen]

We call the Abraham system and similar ones,rather jokingly,Papa-Mama system.

In the system I play with my wife, which is a grandpa-grandma system, after our standard one club opening, one diamond is an artificial game force (we don't say we are in the game zone, we are forced to reach game)

[steve2005]

How is it unethical to overcall on nothing but shape when opponent show only points.

Gee when people overcall on crap against my Precision1♣ on crap can i call the director? foobar thinks they might be being unethical.

:lol:

[foobar]

How is it unethical to overcall on nothing but shape when opponent show only points.

Gee when people overcall on crap against my Precision1!C on crap can i call the director? foobar thinks they might be being unethical.

:lol:

Think you are being sarcastic here, but the issue isn't about overcalling on junk. It's about failure to disclose implicit agreements (if only by way of observation) that develop perforce in an experienced partnership. For example, many pairs have an agreement that they won't make an immediate overcall holding say the equivalent of an opening hand. However, this is seldom disclosed even after the auction is over, and by way of extension, there's no such thing as a truly random 13-card defence against 1♣ unless it's made without looking at the hand.

[hrothgar]

How is it unethical to overcall on nothing but shape when opponent show only points.

Gee when people overcall on crap against my Precision1!C on crap can i call the director? foobar thinks they might be being unethical.

 

 

1. There is an enormous difference between "People overcall on crap" and "Failure to provide appropriate disclosure".

 

2. You seem to be claiming some right to play completely random overcalls over this system. OK... sure... I just have a couple followup questions

 

A. When you say that you are overcalling completely at random, do you mean that you are drawing from a uniform distribution?

 

B. If so, when was the last time that you happened to overcall 7NT? If your overcalls are uniformly distributed, a 7NT overcall should be just as likely as a 1!S overcall. If you can't recall this particular bid, memorable that it is, anything at the 7 level will do...

 

C. Now, perhaps that you've decided that your overcalls aren't uniformly distributed... Instead you assign some probability to various bids such that you bid 1!S with a probability of 10%, 2!H with a probability of 5%, ...

 

In this case, I'd like to know What is the shape of that probability density function? And, can I please set a set of hands where you are making these random overcalls such that I can make sure that what you claim to be playing is consistent with what you are playing. And, oh yes, is there any kind of relationship between the particular shape of a hand that you get dealt and th bids that you choose to make because in my experience, if someone claims the be playing "random" overcalls, their 1!S overcall will either had spade length or spade shortage by not something in between.

 

D. Last, but not least, people are really miserable at generating random numbers. How are you generating the entropy that you need to for such a system?

 

At a more basic level, even if you think that you are playing a system based on random overcalls, you're almost certainly not. You parter is going to be able to pick up on stuff, and this creates a Concealed Partnership Understanding.

[captyogi]

I am trying to see if I can have system that tells us what level we should reach or we should not cross, and that too at lowest possible level of bidding.

[captyogi]

In the system I play with my wife, which is a grandpa-grandma system, after our standard one club opening, one diamond is an artificial game force (we don't say we are in the game zone, we are forced to reach game)

 

Game Zone or Game Force , Both Same things.

I call it Game Zone , and if opps interfere and steal the deal, they cannot go Unpunished.

 

Things are in Development stages.

[steve2005]

so ask them. i m sure will say they doesn't promise much in terms of values/hcp overcalling on shape

 

Yes partially sarcastic. Is disclosure issue not alert issue.

 

Presumably you alerting as artificial so up to opponents to ask to find pt range.

[steve2005]

Disclosure. Sure will disclose that overcall could be based on shape not HCP. You still don't know for sure what we have. That's the point if your methods only guarantee hcp and our methods only show shape. It is know on average the 1♣ side will have more hcp on average.

 

It will still be difficult to decide whether to stop and penalize or find own best spot. Meanwhile your space for finding your spot will be reduced. At MP especially that is all we desire.

[hrothgar]

Disclosure. Sure will disclose that overcall could be based on shape not HCP. You still don't know for sure what we have. That's the point if your methods only guarantee hcp and our methods only show shape. It is know on average the 1♣ side will have more hcp on average.

 

It will still be difficult to decide whether to stop and penalize or find own best spot. Meanwhile your space for finding your spot will be reduced. At MP especially that is all we desire.

 

Steve, absolutely no one cares that your overcalls only show shape.

 

The real issue, which you dodge over and over again is that you are not able to provide appropriate disclosure of your methods.

 

I raised a bunch of questions a page or so back...

I am still waiting for anything approaching a comprehensible answer.

[steve2005]

1. There is an enormous difference between "People overcall on crap" and "Failure to provide appropriate disclosure".

 

2. You seem to be claiming some right to play completely random overcalls over this system. OK... sure... I just have a couple followup questions

 

A. When you say that you are overcalling completely at random, do you mean that you are drawing from a uniform distribution?

 

B. If so, when was the last time that you happened to overcall 7NT? If your overcalls are uniformly distributed, a 7NT overcall should be just as likely as a 1!S overcall. If you can't recall this particular bid, memorable that it is, anything at the 7 level will do...

 

C. Now, perhaps that you've decided that your overcalls aren't uniformly distributed... Instead you assign some probability to various bids such that you bid 1!S with a probability of 10%, 2!H with a probability of 5%, ...

 

In this case, I'd like to know What is the shape of that probability density function? And, can I please set a set of hands where you are making these random overcalls such that I can make sure that what you claim to be playing is consistent with what you are playing. And, oh yes, is there any kind of relationship between the particular shape of a hand that you get dealt and th bids that you choose to make because in my experience, if someone claims the be playing "random" overcalls, their 1!S overcall will either had spade length or spade shortage by not something in between.

 

D. Last, but not least, people are really miserable at generating random numbers. How are you generating the entropy that you need to for such a system?

 

At a more basic level, even if you think that you are playing a system based on random overcalls, you're almost certainly not. You parter is going to be able to pick up on stuff, and this creates a Concealed Partnership Understanding.

You misunderstand. I meant overcalling without showing your suits not randomly overcalling. Something like crash and suction.