My fault I guess but advice requested

[bilalz]

p[hv=pc=n&s=saj95hak95dt7cat4&w=sk762h842dq54ck87&n=s43hqj7dak92cq632&e=sqt8ht63dj863cj95&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1cp1hp2hp4cp4dp4sp5dp6hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I was sitting North. Went down one after good play by my p.

Catalog of mistakes and optimisms from me I guess. Chose to support with 3 cards, my two honors and the poor spades as the excuse.

In my defense I am new to the art of controls and was not sure if my 5♦ was slam forcing. I figured P would stop in 5♥ if he does not have the other control in clubs and there is a high chance that our losers in spades are only one due to my doubleton.

 

So please let me have it. Where should I have stopped? Pulled to 4♥ after 4♣. Is my hand not worth the diamond control? If I pull to 5♥ after 4♠, does partner not complain that slam was missed because he was worried about a second diamond loser? He has no space to ask for queen of trumps either so I have to take that into account myself.

 

Is partner blameless? I did limit my hand to a maximum of 14 HCPs and my 12 are not the worst. Would a queen of spade really make a difference to my hand? Partner could make slam if he has King of spade instead of jack. Denying him diamond control would put him in 4nt, followed by 5♦ from me and maybe a queen ask from him or an expectation to pull his 5h to slam with the queen.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Tramticket]

I am not wholly against raising with three-card support, but in this case you would be wiser to show your balanced shape with a 1NT rebid (if your NT range is 15-17).

 

Having said this, I think that your partner got a bit over-excited. If you regularly raise with three-card support he could bid 3NT. If he has a reasonable expectation of a four-card support, then 4♣ is fine as a mild slam invite. You must show your diamond control, but he can then bid 4♥, comfortable that he has told you of his mild slam interest and inviting you to continue with extras. He has no business going beyond 4♥ on that hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Your partner has driven to slam with a flat 16 and only 4 trumps opposite a possible 12 count. It would make no difference if you had a heart more and a diamond less.

[sfi]

I don't have an issue with the raise, but I would like some gadget to let partner ask whether I have four trumps. Over 4C, I think your 4D and 5D calls are clear.

 

Partner could have taken the auction slower. I would have tried 2S to see what happened. Presumably this is some sort of a naturalish game try. If you accept game, then I'm happy to look for a diamond control and punt slam. If not, I would make one more try with 3NT (in case you want to pass) and then sign off over 4D (in case you are taking a negative view with poor controls). Given that we have shown controls in all side suits in the posited auction, that has to ask your opinion on the idea of slam.

 

On a side note, I would recommend opening 1D rather than 1C. You're not going to like the auction 1C - (1S) - X - (P).

[MrAce]

Agree with what they already said.

[FelicityR]

The slam is (possibly) less likely to happen if you are able to open 1♦ with the North hand. Was that available in your system? Playing SAYC or 2/1 I'd always open 1♦ here with 4♦ + 4♣.

 

And as Cyberyeti indicated, partner got carried away with a 16 count.

[bilalz]

Thank you for the answers so far and I hope I get some more comments too.

We play Nordic standard and bid the lowest 4 card suit. Helps us find slams in minors at times and adds some other gadgets to our bidding. When I play sayc I do as you pointed out. Have not given so much thought to adopting that in the Nordic standard, might be that there is no drawback.

 

In my partner's defense, this was at our local club where we have a good chance to score an extra trick or two (which he duly did) and he is a very good player. But he commented to me afterwards that my two control bids show that I know nothing about bridge. Maybe a heat in the moment thing and one that I certainly did not mind. And I accept that I did commit the sin of supporting with 3 cards (but as pointed out, an extra heart for a diamond makes it not so different, plus I had the jack to handle some bad breaks). My other regular partner routinely checks for 3nt game when in such auctions when he holds good cards in the unbid (mostly major) suit, to give me a chance to show if I have sinned. Since it costs nothing and we do not play it as asking for controls. Obviously the ten and 9 of spades are crucial to any nt contract and my 1nt bid almost certainly puts me on lead and I have telegraphed the lead for opps. Maybe I was overthinking it but for me a heart contract was always safer.

 

For me the 4s bid promises a hand that is safe in 5H, when I visualized a hand like that I could not help but bid 5D. I think the hand is a bit more complicated from my side than my Partner assumes. After all 5H goes down on many many opening hands with the 4-4 fit!

[gordontd]

My preferred auction, allowing a three-card raise which I would also have made, would be:

 

1D - 1H

2H - 2S

2NT- 3NT

[Cyberyeti]

If he has the hand he's bid, your control bids are entirely justified, you can expect something more like Ax, AKxxx, xx, AKxx (if this is not an initial 2♥ bid for you) where you can make 7♣ or 6♥.

 

What does he want you to hold that isn't a strong notrump and only rebids 2♥ where slam is good ? Well you've shown ♦AK, you've denied ♣K, you're going to need ♥Q and possibly J, ♣Q and possibly J and ♠K, this is an awful lot for a simple 2♥ rebid that isn't a 1N opener.

 

The key to this being good is you holding a 5th club, 4th heart or preferably both, so 4♣ is just wasting space, he needs to find out your hand type.

 

1♣-1♥-2♥-2♠-2N and he knows what he's facing (basically a weak NT with 3 hearts) and won't even consider a slam.

[ggwhiz]

Imo it is most important to open 1♦ to maintain flexibility for your next bid.

 

1nt is not attractive and while raising hearts on 3 is much better than that I think it tends to be more encouraging than a 2♣ (my choice) rebid on a soft flatish 12 count.

 

It also gives your partner better options, specifically in this case and most often 2♠ as 4th suit forcing to game. You can show your 3-card hearts over this, 2nt or whatever flavour your hand is and be better able to put the brakes on over partners slam tries while still showing your stuff.

 

Still, I don't understand the 4♣ bid which also trashed your bidding efficiency.

[Dinarius]

I bid

1♦️1❤️

1NT 3NT

 

I would never raise with a three card holding in this situation. Play with the room, as they say.

 

Opening the bidding, you promised a rebid, so just bid it. If you get slaughtered in 3NT on a ♠️ lead, then so be it. Everyone else should be suffering the same fate.

 

D.

[gordontd]

 

I would never raise with a three card holding in this situation. Play with the room, as they say.

 

Then that clearly depends on which room you are playing in.

[bilalz]

I have to say that I am surprised by the consensus that my 4D and 5D bids are justifiable. As I am new to this, I was not sure if the 5D promised club control as well instead of denying it. Actually the club denial was the very reason I did not pull to 5H as partner has the space to do that himself with this information.

 

So I will turn to the other problem.

Would be interesting to know how many of you would 'never' bid 2H in that spot. (I understand the point about opening 1D, would you bid 1nt even if you opened 1D, as the post above suggested?)

[sfi]

I have to say that I am surprised by the consensus that my 4D and 5D bids are justifiable. As I am new to this, I was not sure if the 5D promised club control as well instead of denying it. Actually the club denial was the very reason I did not pull to 5H as partner has the space to do that himself with this information.

 

Your partner is making a strong slam try with 4C, and it is hard not to cuebid the diamonds here. Similarly, once partner bids past game, it seems normal to show your other control in case it is what partner is looking for. The reason most people are putting more of the blame on your partner is that 4C takes up a lot of room, so it should show a hand with a clear direction, and your partner's hand doesn't match the bid. The general values are there for a slam try, and partner's hand has lots of controls, but good slam bidding is about specific cards and a source of tricks, and the jump to 4C turns the auction from an exchange of information into a request to show specific cards.

 

So I will turn to the other problem.

Would be interesting to know how many of you would 'never' bid 2H in that spot. (I understand the point about opening 1D, would you bid 1nt even if you opened 1D, as the post above suggested?)

 

Opening 1D really was a minor aside. I've played in partnerships where 1C is correct, and can live with it. As to whether I would bid 2H, that strongly depends on the partnership. My inclination is to raise since I have good cards for suit play along with the doubleton, but if partner isn't expecting it then there is nothing wrong with 1NT. At the moment, I have active partnerships with five people and the agreements range from "regularly raise on three-card support and have system to ask" to "sometimes raise and have system to ask" to "sometimes raise and deal with it" to "rarely raise" to "the raise guarantees four". They all work.

 

The real secret to bidding is to understand expectations - the actual agreements really matter very little.

[bilalz]

Thanks again. I do not think my partner's problem was so much that I raised with 3 cards. This he expects from time to time as long as I have a good explanation, but he did want me to then downgrade my hand even further on the basis of that 3-card raise and deny controls. Something that I really did think about during the bidding and might have done some other day, but his club control meant that all 12 of my Hcps were good.

[Dinarius]

Then that clearly depends on which room you are playing in.

 

If you raise on a three card holding, presumably because you don’t like the look of your Spades for a 1NT rebid, then you are bidding your partner’s hand (hoping he has five Hearts and, like me, doesn’t have a Spade stop) rather than your own.

 

If you only redid NT every time you have stops in the three suits Partner hasn’t bid, you’ll lose in the long run.

 

There is time for Partner to show five ❤️ if he has them.

 

D.

[Stephen Tu]

I bid

1♦️1❤️

1NT 3NT

 

I would never raise with a three card holding in this situation. Play with the room, as they say.

 

Opening the bidding, you promised a rebid, so just bid it. If you get slaughtered in 3NT on a ♠️ lead, then so be it. Everyone else should be suffering the same fate.

 

Why bid with the room when you can do better than the room? Why settle for average-minus when you can get a top by playing 3nt with partner declaring with his spades being led into rather than through, or finding 4h/5c/5d when spades are wide open? Personally if I can outbid the field I want to do it.

 

I like something like gordontd's auction. I personally like to use 2s over 2H as artificial GF, then can sort out opener's hand type and shape.

 

If you raise on a three card holding, presumably because you don't like the look of your Spades for a 1NT rebid, then you are bidding your partner's hand (hoping he has five Hearts and, like me, doesn't have a Spade stop) rather than your own.

 

No, you are just showing your hand, if you have an agreement that 3 cd raises are OK on this sort of shape or with say a 13(54). You are only really in bad shape if partner has 4, partner passes, and 1nt was a better spot. In most other cases you are ahead. If partner has 4 hearts only and a spade stop, will bid some number of notrump and you get to play it from his side which is advantageous. If partner has spades wide open you avoid playing 3nt and may get to a 4-3 heart fit for a top, or 5 of a minor when 3nt fails.

[bilalz]

Why bid with the room when you can do better than the room? Why settle for average-minus when you can get a top by playing 3nt with partner declaring with his spades being led into rather than through, or finding 4h/5c/5d when spades are wide open? Personally if I can outbid the field I want to do it.

 

I like gordontd's auction. I personally like to use 2s over 2H as artificial GF, then can sort out opener's hand type and shape.

 

 

 

No, you are just showing your hand, if you have an agreement that 3 cd raises are OK on this sort of shape or with say a 13(54). You are only really in bad shape if partner has 4, partner passes, and 1nt was a better spot. In most other cases you are ahead. If partner has 4 hearts only and a spade stop, will bid some number of notrump and you get to play it from his side which is advantageous. If partner has spades wide open you avoid playing 3nt and may get to a 4-3 heart fit for a top, or 5 of a minor when 3nt fails.

 

Fully agreed. My other p would take the auction to 3nt or 2s (if there is slam interest). My hand has no advantage being the nt declarer from any of the 4 suits, not just spades. While there is more space to show 5 hearts from p if he is stronger, don't forget that the auction could well stop at 1 nt. And I did play the room. A spade lead against a 1nt contract is automatic and p could even have many positional stoppers/tricks if he is declarer.

[Dinarius]

Why bid with the room when you can do better than the room? Why settle for average-minus when you can get a top by playing 3nt with partner declaring with his spades being led into rather than through, or finding 4h/5c/5d when spades are wide open? Personally if I can outbid the field I want to do it.

 

**With respect, that’s “looking through the backs of Opps cards” reasoning.**

 

I like something like gordontd's auction. I personally like to use 2s over 2H as artificial GF, then can sort out opener's hand type and shape.

 

 

 

No, you are just showing your hand, if you have an agreement that 3 cd raises are OK on this sort of shape or with say a 13(54). You are only really in bad shape if partner has 4, partner passes, and 1nt was a better spot. In most other cases you are ahead. If partner has 4 hearts only and a spade stop, will bid some number of notrump and you get to play it from his side which is advantageous. If partner has spades wide open you avoid playing 3nt and may get to a 4-3 heart fit for a top, or 5 of a minor when 3nt fails.

 

**If you want to play 3 card raises, and you can tell when the raise is 3 or when it’s 4 or more, then great. Go for it. Having watched hours of live world class bridge on BBO, most recently the Vanderbilt, I think that the best would disagree with you.**

 

[Stephen Tu]

 

**With respect, that’s “looking through the backs of Opps cards” reasoning.**

 

It's got nothing to do with being able to see the opp's cards. It's about maximizing your score over all the possible continuations, all possible hands. On a fairly large percentage of hands, it's simply going to be a push either way. If partner has 5+ hearts, tends to be a game/partial in hearts, same score is reached either style (1nt vs 3cd raise). If partner has 4 hearts only and spade stoppers, and game inv+ values, you'll get to the same 2nt/3nt, but from the other side often. This will also be a push fairly often.

 

Raising to 2h will tend to gain when:

1. 2NT/3NT plays better from partner's side.

2. Spades are unstopped.

 

Bidding 1nt will tend to gain when:

Partner has 4 hearts only, less than game invite values, and 1nt is a better spot than 2H.

 

It is simply a matter of which of these two scenarios will gain most overall.

[rmnka447]

I put most of the blame with your partner for jumping to 6 ♥ over your 5 ♦ bid.

 

Your 5 ♦ bid has an inference that your partner missed even if you're playing 1 ♣ can show as few as 2 ♣. It would be natural for you to bid your ♣ control over 4 ♠ if you had one. So your failure to do so essentially denies the ♣ K. That means there is a real possibility of a loser in the ♣ suit even possibly 2 losers if you hold 3 or more. Tied in with the potential for a ♠ loser, bidding 6 ♥ is a big gamble. It essentially puts cards in your hand that partner has no way of knowing whether they are there or not. If you don't have the ♣ K, then you almost have to have the ♥ Q and the ♠ K for the slam to have a good chance to make. That's just not good bidding.

[WellSpyder]

In my partner's defense, this was at our local club where we have a good chance to score an extra trick or two (which he duly did) and he is a very good player.

That's not a defence for overbidding - quite the contrary. If you can make an extra trick you will score a top when playing in game anyway.

 

(I think with a few simplifying assumptions a match point analysis shows that you should bid a slam when the room has a 50% chance of making 12 tricks, regardless of your own chances of making 12 tricks.)