Double after interfering 1NT

[pescetom]

MPs, both sides vulnerable, you are sitting in East.

[hv=pc=n&e=s864h84d962cq9832&d=e&v=b&b=1&a=p1h1npp2hdp]133|200[/hv]

South is an expert playing a natural 4 card majors system.

You are playing 5 card majors with strong NT (15-17), partner's 1NT is natural promising a stop in ♥.

After his double, what can you deduce and what is your bid?

[eagles123]

i deduce that partner probably has some quite nice hearts, if he doesn't have this virtually beat in this own hand then i can't see why he would double

[FelicityR]

Partner has heard you pass twice already, without any transfer to ♠s so if he's doubling on a hand such as ♠xxx ♥Ax ♦AKQx ♣KJxx or similar hoping to play in a 8 or 9 card minor suit fit at the 3 level then I can understand why the double could be misinterpreted. But I am with eagles123 on this one that double here should almost always be for penalties.

[ggwhiz]

My regular partnership plays negative doubles here and this is takeout and well discussed.

 

An older principle would make this an over/under double, penalty if behind the 1♥ bidder, takeout if in front. I'm passing to win the post-mortem and would be happier if I had 1 heart instead of 2.

[rmnka447]

Your pass over 1 NT promised anywhere from 0-7 HCP. It also denied a 5 ♠ spade suit or a longer minor as you would likely run from 1 NT with such a holding. So, you have so far accurately described you hand.

 

Partner has taken an unusual action in doubling. Partner knows that there are between 26-32 HCP held between the 1 NT hand and opener's hand (11 opener+15 NT to 15 opener+ 17 NT). That means there aren't a lot of points to split between your hand and opener's partner. It hardly makes sense to force your side to compete further without some move by your hand indicating that you hold some values. So, it's very likely partner has a ♥ stack and is doubling for penalty.

 

One valuable thing I learned a long time ago is "When partner does something strange, don't try to save partner." If partner is reasonable player, there may be a good reason for doing what they did. So sit and pass. If the double doesn't work out, than you and partner can discuss it after the session. But the onus remains with partner for making the double. You haven't misrepresented your values in the bidding. Where you don't want to be is "saving" partner by bidding 3 ♣ and finding 2 ♥x was going for a number or was your side's last positive result.

[steve2005]

At MP anything is possible.

[sfi]

It has been a long time since I've played with anyone who would treat this as a penalty double. 3C unless I've discussed something that suggests it isn't takeout.

[ggwhiz]

What hand at Imps can partner possibly have where doubling for penalties is right?

 

It is MP's and despite the hand diagram, the OP states that it is all red. Not only is +200 attractive at either form of the game, if North and I switched hands it could be much more and partner doesn't know I'm the one who is broke. Knowing that I might be I just trust (hope?) they know what they are doing.

 

Would a TO double not do that instead of 1nt? Or a source of tricks 1nt, say Kx(x) of hearts and a good 5 bagger on the side just bid their suit?

[nullve]

Most people who play penalty doubles here just don't understand how takeout doubles work, i.e. that instead of

 

(1♥)-1N-(P)-P

(2♥)-X*-(P)-P

(P)

 

* penalties

 

the bidding might go

 

(1♥)-1N-(P)-P

(2♥)-P*-(P)-X**

(P)-P***-(P).

 

* unsuitable for a takeout double, so usually 3+ H

** takeout double

*** penalty pass

 

Maybe the word 'takeout' is to blame, since it suggests that passing for penalties would be unusual? (In Norway we use the word 'opplysende', which means 'enlightening', instead.)

[0deary]

North didn’t double the 1NT so is limited to 0-~6, pencil in 3, and your 2 leaves ~35 for the others.

 

Over calling 1NT is usually a strong NT and I’m pencilling in 18 tops with some extras after the X (More than that West first double then bid NT)

 

That leaves South with quite a decent hand. I can easily see South making 2H* and if South has a decent second suit this is going to be really awful. So 3C without a second thought

 

(In my village “X = I have 18 points partner!”

[nekthen]

Most people who play penalty doubles here just don't understand how takeout doubles work, i.e. that instead of

 

(1♥)-1N-(P)-P

(2♥)-X*-(P)-P

(P)

 

* penalties

 

the bidding might go

 

(1♥)-1N-(P)-P

(2♥)-P*-(P)-X**

(P)-P***-(P).

 

* unsuitable for a takeout double, so usually 3+ H

** takeout double

*** penalty pass

 

Maybe the word 'takeout' is to blame, since it suggests that passing for penalties would be unusual? (In Norway we use the word 'opplysende', which means 'enlightening', instead.)

 

Really? You expect me to double for takeout with this rubbish? Not happening! My partner has some sort of heart stack and East has pushed his luck hoping that -1 gets him a better result than 1N making +1 or he has dreams of making. It may be something like KQJxxx vs A10xxx. I have a simple rule. If we have bid 1N overcall any subsequent double is for penalties

 

If opps make then that's what happens when you make marginal decisions at pairs"If all your doubles succeed at pairs, you are not doubling often enough". If the scoring were imps I would still pass and expect my partner to have 6 tricks in his own hand

[Tramticket]

There are three possibilities for partner's double: take-out, "values", penalties:

 

- If West has a hand suitable for a take-out double, then why was it not suitable for a take-out double on the last round of bidding? I suppose that it is possible for partner to hold support for the other three suits and (say) ♥AQ. Or maybe partner is trying to suggest both minors? Its all a bit esoteric for me.

- I don't understand why partner would want to show values and ask us to do something sensible. Partner has already tightly defined their hand with the 1NT over-call. What extras can he have?

- This leaves a penalty double. Partner has already shown heart values with the 1NT bid and it sounds like the opponents have chanced their arm to try to push you out of the 1NT prime spot. On this occasion they have pushed too hard and partner is able to wield the axe. A penalty double is clearly right.

 

It would be showing a lack of faith to remove partner's penalty double.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner has a massive heart holding and fast side cards and is shooting for 200 or 500.

 

Axx, AQ108, Axx, Kxx or similar.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=s864h84d962cq9832&d=e&v=b&b=1&a=p1h1npp2hdp]133|200|

 

MPs, both sides vulnerable, you are sitting in East.

South is an expert playing a natural 4 card majors system.

You are playing 5 card majors with strong NT (15-17), partner's 1NT is natural promising a stop in ♥.

After his double, what can you deduce and what is your bid?[/hv]

Depends on agreements but, IMO, the default understanding for West's double is T/O e.g.

♠ J x x x ♥ A J ♦ A K x x ♣ K J x

As East, I would reply 3♣s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bberris]

The question is not, "Do you trust your partner", it's "What is our agreement?". With the example penalty double heart stack above,

Axx, AQ108, Axx, Kxx

this would happen once in a lifetime. You are allowed to pass, and if your partner makes a takeout double, bless him.

 

So what is our agreement? I always bring up general rules about doubles with new partners. My preference is that all doubles are takeout whenever that makes sense. It makes sense that doubles are for takeout when we have not found a fit, which applies here. Philosophically, we want to find our own best spot to play before we go around writing speeding tickets.

[pescetom]

Thanks to all those who replied so far. I am consoled that it is recognised as an unusual situation and that only some consider it immediately obvious what to do.

 

 

Your pass over 1 NT promised anywhere from 0-7 HCP. It also denied a 5 ♠ spade suit or a longer minor as you would likely run from 1 NT with such a holding. So, you have so far accurately described you hand.

 

Partner has taken an unusual action in doubling.

That's much what I was thinking too. Especially as it was the last round of the tournament against a strong opponent B-)

 

 

It has been a long time since I've played with anyone who would treat this as a penalty double. 3C unless I've discussed something that suggests it isn't takeout.

It's not partner's style to look for low level penalties and we have no specific agreement that double after NT is punishment, or whatever.

But it's not easy to imagine why he would want to make a pure takeout in these circumstances either.

 

 

despite the hand diagram

Fixed the vulnerability in the diagram, thanks.

 

 

There are three possibilities for partner's double: take-out, "values", penalties:

 

- If West has a hand suitable for a take-out double, then why was it not suitable for a take-out double on the last round of bidding? I suppose that it is possible for partner to hold support for the other three suits and (say) ♥AQ. Or maybe partner is trying to suggest both minors? Its all a bit esoteric for me.

- I don't understand why partner would want to show values and ask us to do something sensible. Partner has already tightly defined their hand with the 1NT over-call. What extras can he have?

- This leaves a penalty double. Partner has already shown heart values with the 1NT bid and it sounds like the opponents have chanced their arm to try to push you out of the 1NT prime spot. On this occasion they have pushed too hard and partner is able to wield the axe. A penalty double is clearly right.

 

It would be showing a lack of faith to remove partner's penalty double.

This is the conclusion I came to, reluctantly. No other explanation really makes sense. So I trust his judgement and pass.

 

 

 

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." (Arthur Conan Doyle)

[pescetom]

Here is the entire layout.

[hv=pc=n&e=s864h84d962cq9832&s=sa32ha9762da43cj5&w=skj9hkqjdkq75ck64&n=sqt75ht53djt8cat7&d=e&v=b&b=1&a=p1h1npp2hdp]400|300[/hv]

 

 

S made the contract of 2♥ doubled = 1% for EW (of 158 scores).

PAR for the board was 2♥ or 2♠ by S = 60% for EW.

3♣ by E (or 2NT by W) would go down 2 tricks = 22% for EW (or 3% if doubled).

[eagles123]

i don't know which is worse, south's 2H bid, or west's X lol

[pescetom]

Depends on agreements but, IMO, the default understanding for West's double is T/O e.g.

♠ J x x x ♥ A J ♦ A K x x ♣ K J x

As East, I would reply 3♣s

I'm not sure he would have bid 1NT with those majors.

But I take your point, and he thought I should reply 3♣ too.

Although he did buy the beer :)

[Cyberyeti]

i don't know which is worse, south's 2H bid, or west's X lol

 

Both these bids are shockingly bad, 2♥ deserved to find J10xx, Q, J10xx, Q10xx (or worse) opposite, the double deserved what it got.

[GrahamJson]

I have to agree with eagles. Both the 2H bid and the double were truly awful bids.

 

I must say that I don’t particularly like the approach that all doubles are for take out. I normally play that doubles are for take out unless; a) one partner has inferred values in the doubler suit, e.g by making a take out double of another suit or by bidding NT, or b) a Pass wo7ld be forcing.

 

With this agreement the double is for penalties. Ok, this may not come up very often, but then using it as a takeout double is really just asking partner to chose his poison. You have already shown a good hand with something in the other suits, yet partner has passed. Why wo7ld you expect him to be able to make a three level contract when he wasn’t even willing to bid att the two level?

[pescetom]

Both these bids are shockingly bad, 2♥ deserved to find J10xx, Q, J10xx, Q10xx (or worse) opposite

 

S certainly took a risk, but maybe she just read the situation better than anyone else, look at what she did find and how 1NT by E would have scored.

Bear in mind that NS are playing 4 card majors, so South's opening promises 4-card hearts and 12+ HCP and North's pass does not deny any of 3-card hearts, 4-card spades or 7-8 HCP. A 2♥ rebid is nominally 6-card, but misleading her passed-hand companion is not a key concern at this point.

[eagles123]

S certainly took a risk, but maybe she just read the situation better than anyone else, look at what she did find and how 1NT by E would have scored.

Bear in mind that NS are playing 4 card majors, so South's opening promises 4-card hearts and 12+ HCP and North's pass does not deny any of 3-card hearts, 4-card spades or 7-8 HCP. A 2♥ rebid is nominally 6-card, but misleading her passed-hand companion is not a key concern at this point.

 

 

2H is not "taking a risk" it's a truly idiotic bid that no expert in world bridge would make despite what u say in the original post. Sorry to sound harsh, but backing in 2H on a weak no trump after 1H 1N pp is not a risk, it's just stupidity that was extremely fortunate to get rewarded.

 

obviously if there was any tempo issue from north then south should be shot lmao

[GrahamJson]

Again, I have to agree with eagles, 2H is completely bonkers. The actual north hand is just about the best dummy you could possibly hope for, and 2H only makes because of favourable distribution. Consider what would happen if the north and east Hands were swapped; 2H would be a massacre.

 

Just because you play four card majors does not mean that partner won’t find a raise with three trumps. In fact if the north hand had a ruffing value (e.g 4342 distribution) it would be worth a raise. Some players might have scraped a raise as it is.

 

To put it another way, south has shown 12+ points and 5 hearts (unless 15+) so what does she have that she has not already shown? Answer; nothing.

[pescetom]

Sorry to sound harsh, but backing in 2H on a weak no trump after 1H 1N pp is not a risk, it's just stupidity that was extremely fortunate to get rewarded.

I have no problem with you saying what you think, thanks.

I said 'expert' but did not say or intend at world level, just fourty years of experience and a habit of winning tournaments.

 

 

obviously if there was any tempo issue from north then south should be shot lmao

There was no tempo issue.

 

 

Let's agree that a 2♥ rebid was fortunate to get rewarded.

I'm more interested in opinions about double for takeout.