What’s he after.

[Phil]

X AKxxxxx Axx AJ

 

1C 1S

2H 2N (edit)

3H 4C

4D 4S

5C 5D

6H 6S

?

 

1C is 16+

1S is natural positive

 

Everything was natural up until 4C which was presumably a cue for hearts. 4S is 0314 and you (questionably) show the queen /extra length with 6H.

 

It seems you were having a smooth and unambiguous auction until 6S.

 

Partner knows what he is doing so do not take his ability into consideration as part of your decision.

[FelicityR]

Everything was natural up until 4C which was presumably a cue for hearts.

 

Partner knows what he is doing so do not take his ability into consideration as part of your decision.

 

I'm no expert and I am perhaps speaking out of turn here, but what if the hands are a big misfit with partner having 5-0-3-5 distribution and no ♦ stopper. Given that you say that "everything was natural until 4♣ which was presumably a cue for hearts" you sound not too sure yourself. I e-mailed this hand to my son who plays Precision and is a far better player than me and he felt similarly. He did add it is an awkward hand to bid in any system as the 1♣ opener is short on high card points but very strong in distributional strength.

[Phil]

I'm no expert and I am perhaps speaking out of turn here, but what if the hands are a big misfit with partner having 5-0-3-5 distribution and no ♦ stopper. Given that you say that "everything was natural until 4♣ which was presumably a cue for hearts" you sound not too sure yourself. I e-mailed this hand to my son who plays Precision and is a far better player than me and he felt similarly. He did add it is an awkward hand to bid in any system as the 1♣ opener is short on high card points but very strong in distributional strength.

Thanks for replying but there are two points that contradict your theory:

 

1. He chose 2N indicating a diamond stop.

2. He did not rebid 3C.

[Cyberyeti]

Thanks for replying but there are two points that contradict your theory:

 

1. He chose 2N indicating a diamond stop.

2. He did not rebid 3C.

 

Eh, the auction you gave indicated he rebid 3♣

 

1C 1S

2H 3C

3H 4C

4D 4S

5C 5D

6H 6S

?

[ahydra]

Was 4C serious / non-serious?

 

We told partner we have all the missing keys and the HQ but not left him any room. So 6S is a last train-type grand try IMHO, asking us to pick between 6N and 7H.

 

Feels like the key here is to construct likely hands for partner. Assuming 3C was meant to be 2N he might have say AKxxx Qx Qxxx Kx at best (anything more he prob just bids 7), so I think it's safest to sign off in 6N.

 

Assuming partner would generally raise hearts first up with 3, it was indeed questionable to show the HQ.

 

ahydra

[Phil]

Eh, the auction you gave indicated he rebid 3♣

 

Sorry should be 2N. This adds a lot of doubt about 3C I admit.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s2hak65432da32caj&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1c(ART%2016%2B)p1s(NAT%208%2B%205%2B !Ss)p2hp2Np3hp4c(CUE)p4d(CUE)p4s(RKC for !H)p5c(ART 1/4 Keys)p5d(ASK !HQ?)p6h(ART !HQ or length)p6s(?)p?]200|300|

Partner might be expressing doubt, worried about a ♥ loser, e.g.

♠ A K Q J x ♥ x ♦ K J x ♣ K Q x x

Hence I rank

1. 7N = NAT Might have chances if ♥s don't break.

2. 6N = NAT Unsure too. (7♠ might be best with my example above)

3. 7♥ = NAT.[/hv]

[mikeh]

I like the problem.

 

I assume we denied a side King when we bid 6♥.

 

I reject Nigel's hand, since I'd just bid 7N with that hand, even assuming that I'd have bid this way earlier, which I would not have done.

 

My take is that he is looking for the safest grand and that, to me, suggests something like AKJxx Jx QJx KQx.

 

If I have the spade Queen, then 7N is anywhere from a flat out claim to needing a little luck. But if I hold x AKQxxx Axx Axx, then he intends to try to establish an extra spade by ruffing, and has the entries to do so. He probably hopes I hold the heart 10, but the grand has good play even if I don't.

[Cyberyeti]

I largely agree with MikeH, that he's suggesting playing somewhere other than hearts if you have a spade honour.

 

Btw, I suspect a 16 count with 8 non solid hearts can be distinguished from a 16-18 with 6 (or similar with a solid 7 or 8 suit) by a jump at the right point earlier in the auction.

 

Edit, I got confused by the number of xs, thought we had an 8 card suit, I definitely would NOT show the Q with 7.

[cherdano]

Why did I show the Q when we almost certainly have a 9-card fit at best??

[mikeh]

I would not have shown the heart Q, but I will end up very happy I did so (usually) if partner shows up with, say, AKJxx Qx Qxx Kxx. That would probably make my decision fortuitous, rather than right but, as the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than good.

[gszes]

6N

 

IMHO I think N has a powerhouse with around 20 hcp and all suits double stopped all he needs is solid hearts to bid 7n and we do not have them I would hazard a guess that AKQxxx is not good enough (expecting at best 1 heart in n hand).

If all p needed to bid a grand was the heart AKQ and the 2 minor aces they could have bid 4n over 3h and bidding 2n with a 5 card side suit (especially spades in a GF auction) makes little practical sense. 2n can be very useful in finding a minor suit fit if n is something like 4144.

[cherdano]

I would not have shown the heart Q, but I will end up very happy I did so (usually) if partner shows up with, say, AKJxx Qx Qxx Kxx. That would probably make my decision fortuitous, rather than right but, as the saying goes, I'd rather be lucky than good.

Interesting bid to ask for the trump Q when partner has it in his own hand. Welcome back Mike.

[Cyberyeti]

Interesting bid to ask for the trump Q when partner has it in his own hand. Welcome back Mike.

 

This depends on methods, you can play say 5♠ and 5♦-5♥-5♠ as asking for different things here.

[mikeh]

6N

 

IMHO I think N has a powerhouse with around 20 hcp and all suits double stopped all he needs is solid hearts to bid 7n and we do not have them I would hazard a guess that AKQxxx is not good enough (expecting at best 1 heart in n hand).

If all p needed to bid a grand was the heart AKQ and the 2 minor aces they could have bid 4n over 3h and bidding 2n with a 5 card side suit (especially spades in a GF auction) makes little practical sense. 2n can be very useful in finding a minor suit fit if n is something like 4144.

 

One needs to listen to the auction and to think about what the bidding tells one.

 

Here, he did not keycard over 3♥ but did once we cuebid diamonds. Ask yourself what this tells you.

 

Partner clearly has a good hand, but equally clearly is off the top two tricks in diamonds, which is why he needed to hear your show a diamond control before he used keycard.

 

Our cue did not promise the Ace...it could have been the King, or a stiff or conceivably a void. However, our response to keycard told him that it was the Ace.

 

This approach, of not using keycard with a side suit uncontrolled, is very basic slam bidding technique. There are exceptions. Sometimes one holds so much strength that one can infer that partner has the Ace or the King. Other times, and these are rare, one simply doesn't have the bidding space to cuebid intelligibly and needs to take a flyer. Here, however, we have ample room over 3♥. Having rebid 2N (rather than 3♣ as the original post stated) we cannot possibly be doing anything other than cuebidding in support of hearts when we bid 4♣.

 

As for needing solid hearts, that is a more plausible explanation. The analogy would be to an auction in which, say, we had shown the trump queen in response to the keycard ask (assume we had shown 2 with the Queen) and now partner asks for Kings. To give a simple example, say we had opened, and had shown 6+ spades and partner bid 4N, we bid 5♠, and partner bids 5N. This (for most good partnerships) promises all the keycards and opener is allowed to bid the grand with a pleasant surprise, such as, say, AKQJxxx in spades, having promised only AKQxxx.

 

So one could analogize to the present situation, in which responder, having determined that we hold all the keycards and the trump Queen, has few options. I think it a close call as to whether it would be better to use this to ask for the spade Queen, as I take it, or solid trump. My view is that asking for the spade Queen would be more likely to be useful, in that I have difficulty with responder cuebidding 4♣ on a stiff heart, let alone then trying for a grand when we know his diamonds are dubious. It's not impossible to construct a hand, but most responders won't be aggressive over 3♥ with a stiff heart and at best QJx(x) in a side suit, and no club Ace.

[mikeh]

Interesting bid to ask for the trump Q when partner has it in his own hand. Welcome back Mike.

 

Agreed, it is odd, but if one has all the side Kings (and I realize that he doesn't since he cuebid 4♣) one can ask for the Queen anyway, since if he shows it, you can count an extra trick. I am not suggesting this is 'good' bridge :)

 

I have however, not using that 'technique' intentionally, reached a couple of grands after finding out that partner held the Queen I was looking at in my own hand, for that very reason....where I thought I had 12 tricks, I could now count 13. Of course, in those cases, the queen was 'shown' in the context of a 2 or 5 response.

 

As for being back, we'll see but thanks for the welcome.

[nige1]

I like the problem. My take is that he is looking for the safest grand and that, to me, suggests something like AKJxx Jx QJx KQx.

If I have the spade Queen, then 7N is anywhere from a flat out claim to needing a little luck. But if I hold x AKQxxx Axx Axx, then he intends to try to establish an extra spade by ruffing, and has the entries to do so. He probably hopes I hold the heart 10, but the grand has good play even if I don't.

If partner holds something like

♠ A K Q J x x ♥ x ♦ Q J x ♣ K x x

Then 7N is better than 7♥ but 7♠ is better than either.

[mikeh]

If partner holds something like

♠ A K Q J x x ♥ x ♦ Q J x ♣ K x x

Then 7N is better than 7♥ but 7♠ is better than either.

But he'd know that and he wouldn't bid 6♠. He could bid 7♠ knowing that we'd correct to 7N if we held, say, x AKQJxx Axx Axx

 

Not to mention that some people might choose to rebid those spades at some point lower than the 6-level (and I think we can safely assume that 6♠ was not an attempt to play there)

[Phil]

One other point to mention is that 1♣ - 1♠ - 3♥ would show solid hearts.

 

The lack of this call does not mean our suit is non-solid however.

[Phil]

Why did I show the Q when we almost certainly have a 9-card fit at best??

 

Agree - which is why I used 'questionably' in the first post.

 

It would have saved us a headache.

[0deary]

Could there be a hole in either of our majors? If so not NT of course and if the weakness is in H we might not be able to set them up and use them in a S contract on a Diamond lead for lack of entry, and if in S he might simply not be able to get them going. I can’t go to 7 unless I’m pretty sure

 

So what is it? It’s not particularly a strong Club/precision issue now and my Bridge is far too rusty to offer much more on such elegant sequences. I’d reflect closely on what partner did and didn’t bid and then ask Sherlock Holmes! Super question thank you

 

PS: Reflecting on this now Phil as I read it you have shown 16+, shown a hand dominated by your H suit, you have the Ace Diamonds and two other, and you have shown the QH (but he doesn’t know you have the KH)

 

On the basis of that partner has happily driven to 6S and offers you to move if you are sure. That and the silence from opponents suggests that partner has a similar hand in Spades that you have in Hearts

 

If I’ve read all that right then on a good day you can make ~13NT, but if we have majors holes everything looks very iffy, and much will depend on entries. He might only have one Club entry, nothing in Diamonds, a Heart ruff and just the one spade. And although your hand is strong after a Diamond lead you are down to just a club entry.

 

If I’ve read this right I pass and hope for reasonable splits

[msjennifer]

Had partner held a solid spade suit then the bidding would have been different.His 2NT bid denies a tree card heart support and also a side four card biddable suit. .oOver 3 H bid his 4C has to be cuebid with Qx in hearts.4D is a cue bid.4S is also a cue.I just cannot imagine the further bidding as I regularly play Precision.This sequence appears to be a NEW type of a strong club system.

[gszes]

One needs to listen to the auction and to think about what the bidding tells one.

 

Here, he did not keycard over 3♥ but did once we cuebid diamonds. Ask yourself what this tells you.

 

 

 

 

 

HEY mikeh welcome back :)))))) sorry I cut the rest of your response but I think it started with the wrong assumption that N keycarded over 4d. The next bid was 4s (unless there are more bidding corrections I missed (sigh). I see nowhere in this bidding where our intrepid 6s bidder categorically denied a dia stop but kept making bids to keep the bidding alive. The later 5d bid makes it appear obvious that responder had a dia control all along so those other assumptions about missing a dia control do not seem correct. IF 4s is suddenly key card (unspecified and unusual (imho) then forget all the below but otherwise the 4s cue is merely seeking out more information. If responder is strong enough to convert any slam heart bid to NT then temporarily pretending to have heart support is a fine way of gathering information. That is what I think is happening here. By pretending to have a couple of hearts responder has learned enough to try for a grand BUT needs solid hearts and once again we go back to my train of thought that if all responder needed was the heart AKQ and 2 side aces for a grand they would have keycarded over 3h:))))))))) and once again welcome back

[Cyberyeti]

HEY mikeh welcome back :)))))) sorry I cut the rest of your response but I think it started with the wrong assumption that N keycarded over 4d. The next bid was 4s (unless there are more bidding corrections I missed (sigh). I see nowhere in this bidding where our intrepid 6s bidder categorically denied a dia stop but kept making bids to keep the bidding alive. The later 5d bid makes it appear obvious that responder had a dia control all along so those other assumptions about missing a dia control do not seem correct. IF 4s is suddenly key card (unspecified and unusual (imho) then forget all the below but otherwise the 4s cue is merely seeking out more information. If responder is strong enough to convert any slam heart bid to NT then temporarily pretending to have heart support is a fine way of gathering information. That is what I think is happening here. By pretending to have a couple of hearts responder has learned enough to try for a grand BUT needs solid hearts and once again we go back to my train of thought that if all responder needed was the heart AKQ and 2 side aces for a grand they would have keycarded over 3h:))))))))) and once again welcome back

 

READ THE NOTES THE OP PUT IN "4S is 0314".

[Phil]

By the way, I suppose some are thinking that there are certain inferences here because we play a strong club, but that is not the case.

 

Pretend like we started:

 

1H - 1S

3H - 4C

etc..