Continuations after a reverse

[Tramticket]

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You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.

 

Traditional Methods

Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3♠? And is it non-forcing?

 

Ingberman

Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3♣, as requested and East bids what? 3♦ false preference? 3♥ - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3♦/3♥) would you now bid 3♠ as West? And is that forcing?

 

Reverse Lebensohl

As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

 

Thanks

[eagles123]

I think i'd pass 2H as East

[Tramticket]

I think i'd pass 2H as East

 

You don't play this as 100% forcing?

[eagles123]

yes it's forcing, but i just think it's probably the percentage action

 

i mean if we have game meh we're non vul at least :P

[Tramticket]

yes it's forcing, but i just think it's probably the percentage action

 

i mean if we have game meh we're non vul at least :P

 

Ok fair enough. I don't mind partners "taking a view" - as long as they know that they are making an anti-system call. I'm not sure I would do it on this deal though.

[steve2005]

West hand isn't worth a reverse unless East has 5♠ . I would raise to 2♠ if this is passed will be best spot.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&w=skjthaqj7dajt76c4&e=sa876ht92d42cq873&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=p1dp1sp2hp]266|200[/hv]

You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.

Traditional Methods

Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3♠? And is it non-forcing?

Ingberman

Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3♣, as requested and East bids what? 3♦ false preference? 3♥ - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3♦/3♥) would you now bid 3♠ as West? And is that forcing?

Reverse Lebensohl

As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

IMO

1. Tramticket seems right that the ♠ fit makes the West hand worth a reverse. Awkward on these hands :(
2. A reverse is at least F1.
3. After a reverse, I like Normal Lebensohl. Here 2N would puppet 3♣ and then 3♦ is non-forcing. 2♠ (and 2♥ if available) would also be non-forcing. But tramticket's Reverse Lebensohl seems better.

[nullve]

Qxxxx

Jxx

x

xxxx

 

Partner: 1♦

You: ?

 

Suppose you respond 1♠.

 

Partner: 2♥

You: ?

[0deary]

East can’t support West in H because our long suit will lose control by repeated club forces, and similarly West wants to hold low spades for cheap ruffing, and we can’t afford to “waste” such high spades (ironically a bad and not good feature) so either needs to pass ASAP. Some use 2N as forcing in which case East should pass the 2H (but avert from partners face for 3 minutes), but if 2N is weak and can pass then West tables the green card I think. (I’m not competent to comment on the other treatments, but thank you TT- it was interesting to look at Professor Ingbermans work)

[kuhchung]

Answering #2 because #1 is too hard and that's why #2 exists

 

No don't break the relay. Partner has told you he's weak and you are as minimum as you can get. Why break it?

 

As east, I would just drop in 3D after the relay. We could still be in the 6-2, and the 5-2 plays better than a 4-3. West should obviously pass 3D - he doesn't know east only has 2 diamonds.

[neilkaz]

Qxxxx

Jxx

x

xxxx

 

Partner: 1♦

You: ?

 

Suppose you respond 1♠.

 

Partner: 2♥

You: ?

 

If you psych a response with that garbage 3 count, yeah, I think you have to pass the reverse. I pass the first time with this junk when playing 2/1 or S.A.

[MrAce]

If you psych a response with that garbage 3 count, yeah, I think you have to pass the reverse. I pass the first time with this junk when playing 2/1 or S.A.

 

What he wrote is a genuine hand to respond. I do not think there will be a single player among top players who would pass this hand that you call garbage.

[MrAce]

Reverse Lebensohl

As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

 

Thanks

 

Yes I played it, it is playable and considering the hands we have no fit ends up usually in 3 NT, not letting the weak hand grab the NT is a good thing in many cases. However, it makes it more difficult with the hands that has fit, due to having to go through 2 NT.

Overall I like normal lebensohl.

[MrAce]

I think i'd pass 2H as East

 

You should pass if you did not have a real respond values previous round. But you do have. You are not giving pd less than his minimum expectations of your first bid so I would never pass with this.

[Vampyr]

You should pass if you did not have a real respond values previous round. But you do have. You are not giving pd less than his minimum expectations of your first bid so I would never pass with this.

 

I’m not sure you should pass even then. Partner is unlimited and could have game in his own hand. But then, I would not respond with less than five or six HCP unless I have something interesting like support for partners opening suit or a five card major etc.

[miamijd]

"Standard expert" today is probably cheaper of fourth suit or 2NT as negative. But a really good treatment is cheaper of fourth suit or 2NT as good-bad (that is, negative if responder follows by bidding 3 of opener's minor or passing 3 of opener's minor if that's what opener rebids, and better than GF otherwise).

 

I'm with several others here. I would bid 2NT and then correct 3C to 3D or pass a 3D bid (which opener will make if he has no club tolerance).

 

Cheers,

Mike

[maartenxq]

I think the problem of this hand is not so much a question of what conventions to play, but more a case of a bad reverse timing. Would have the same 'mistake' btw. In my view 3 ♠after 2 nt is 100 % forcing, even slammish, so we will reach 3 nt or 4 ♠in which contracts partner can show his world class declarer play.

 

Maarten Baltussen

[nekthen]

Playing lebensohl style, I would bid 2♠, which I regard as weak without a long minor. A direct 3♠ is GF and 2N 3♠ is invitational

[kenberg]

Playing Ingberman/leb, and accepting the W hand as worth a reverse (which I agree with):

 

 

1D 1S

2H 2NT

3C 3D

P

 

I would cal this the "straight arrow" sequence. Nothing clever. Maybe W is 6/4. If not, you are in a 5-2 fit and there is no reason to think anywhere else is better. As to the 3C call, sure I hope partner is not passing 3C but unless I have extra values and a longer than shown suit I am simply bidding 3C. If partner has six of them it might be the last makeable contract.

 

The main thing is that I see no reason, in either hand, for anyone to get inventive.

[GrahamJson]

Mike Lawrence spends a long chapter on reverses in his “Tips on Bidding”. He recommends using the cheaper of the 4th suit or 2NT to show a weak hand. Also responder should give priority to rebidding a 5 card major. Using his methods the bidding would therefore continue 2NT - 3C -3D - Pass. Opener would not be tempted to continue to 3S as responder has more or less denied a five card spade suit.

[MrAce]

I'm not sure you should pass even then. Partner is unlimited and could have game in his own hand. But then, I would not respond with less than five or six HCP unless I have something interesting like support for partners opening suit or a five card major etc.

 

Unless they are playing a system where 1 level opening is unlimited, pd is limited.

He is limited with 17-22. Therefore you can pass if you believe even a 22 count would not make a good play in game.(in practice almost everyone opens 2♣ with 22)

You may ask "then why respond at the first place?" Answer is easy - You may hold a hand that would improve a lot had you found a fit, and for the rest you were willing to bail out once you believe you improved the contract.

 

An example:

 

JTxxx

xxxx

xxxx

Void

 

1♣--1♠

2 red--pass

[dave_beer]

Playing Ingberman 2NT rebid is neutral and usually denies 5-card ♠ suit. Responder can bid game after bidding 2NT but can't usually offer choice of games*. Opener's only forcing rebid below 3NT is 3♣. With the actual hand I rebid 3♦. I can't rebid 3♠ since there is no safety if ♠ aren't an adequate trump suit.

 

As described Reverse Lebensohl doesn't seem like a good structure. It presumably allows you to stop in 2♠ but it loses all of the other shape information that both partners might give using Ingberman or Lebensohl.

 

* You could play that 3♠ after 2NT offers choice between 3NT and 4♠ but that might be a hand willing to play 4-3 fit.

[hansen50]

[hv=pc=n&w=skjthaqj7dajt76c4&e=sa876ht92d42cq873&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=p1dp1sp2hp]266|200[/hv]

 

You are a bit thin to reverse, but decide to upgrade based on the good holding in partner's suit.

 

Traditional Methods

Say you treat the reverse as a one-round force and play traditional continuations - so you need to bid the 4th suit or jump to create a strong continuation. On the East hand above you presumably bid a non-forcing 2NT now. What do you bid next as west? Do you bid 3♠? And is it non-forcing?

 

Ingberman

Let us now suppose that you play 2NT as Ingberman (or Lebernsohl) as described here, presumably you also bid 2NT as East - a relay with a minimum strength hand? West rebids 3♣, as requested and East bids what? 3♦ false preference? 3♥ - a likely 4-3 fit? Whichever East chooses (3♦/3♥) would you now bid 3♠ as West? And is that forcing?

 

Reverse Lebensohl

As a final thought, it has been suggested that we could play "Reverse Lebensohl" in this situation - i.e. all strong hand bid 2NT and three level bids are non-forcing. Is this playable? Does anyone have experience of this method?

 

Thanks

[hansen50]

I play reverse relay, which means next possible bid is signoff, which in this case is 2S, and now next possible bid, 2NT shows weak reverse, and GF is off the table

[rhm]

Qxxxx

Jxx

x

xxxx

 

Partner: 1♦

You: ?

 

Suppose you respond 1♠.

 

Partner: 2♥

You: ?

I like to play that rebidding the major is non forcing and shows therefor a hand not worth forcing to game opposite a reverse.

Of course with a fit opener will usually still raise, but you can stop at the two -level without a fit and below game otherwise.

Weak hands with less than 5 cards in the major use Ingbergman, but if the major is then rebid at the three level, the message is cancelled. Responder is forcing to game with at least 6 cards in his major and no particular fit with openers suits.

With a very strong suit responder would not use Inbergman but jump rebid his major.

With a fit in openers suit and game forcing values, responder would first show the fit even when having more than 4 cards in his major. Opener is expected to show 3 card support for responders major next.

With the given hand above responder has a choice between passing a forcing sequence or rebidding his spades.

 

Rainer Herrmann