Options? Choose One

[FelicityR]

I was watching a genuine level expert game on BBO a few days ago, and whilst the bidding for the games and slams is good to watch I actually prefer the part score struggles. This one had the added factor of being vulnerable against non-vulnerable. What is the best bid?

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s62h985daq863cj76&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1sp1npp2hppdp]133|200[/hv]

 

Edit: This is IMP teams. Further edit: 5 card majors

[JanisW]

Partner never has a penalty double, it has to be for takeout.

He also should not be minimum with 5233. Probably 6133 with weakish ♠s or 5134 or 5233 15count.

 

So my bid is 3♦

 

In♠ my hand will contribute 1,5tricks with almost zero potential for more. Furthermore declarer will get tapped in ♥ and loose control

In♦ my hand has potential for 4 tricks and we will not loose control, because we'll be ruffing ♥ in dummy, at least I hope so :)

 

The best trump suit quite often is the long suit of the weaker Hand.

 

regards

JW

[MrAce]

Pd can't have 4 card ♥ since he passed 1 NT. he probably have 5233 shape and willing to compete, or willing to defend if we have hearts behind the overcaller.

I would bid 3♦. 2 ♠ is ok too I guess.

[MrAce]

. Probably 6133 with weakish ♠s or 5134 or 5233 15count.

 

 

Pd can not have any of these shapes except 5233

OP said genuine expert game. Passing 1 NT would not even occur to an expert with 6331 or 5143.

[gszes]

3d

 

xxxxxx A Kxx AKx

xxxxx A Kxxx AKx

 

are a couple of hand I would pass 1n with as opener (and be happy to reopen with x). I would bid 2c with the 2nd example if the minors were reversed and be hoping I did not hear 2s next.

[Tramticket]

3d

 

xxxxxx A Kxx AKx

xxxxx A Kxxx AKx

 

are a couple of hand I would pass 1n with as opener (and be happy to reopen with x). I would bid 2c with the 2nd example if the minors were reversed and be hoping I did not hear 2s next.

 

I would have thought that AK109X XX XXX AKX is just as likely. Bidding 2♠ looks reasonable and might often work out better than 3♦.

 

Is this IMPs or MPs?

[FelicityR]

I would have thought that AK109X XX XXX AKX is just as likely. Bidding 2♠ looks reasonable and might often work out better than 3♦.

 

Is this IMPs or MPs?

 

IMP teams. My apologies for not listing this with the OP.

[Winstonm]

Partner cannot be 6133 so he must be 5431 - it is really doubtful he is 5233 with enough to double after his pass of 1NT and not opening 1NT originally. This would mean the opponents have found their 9-card heart fit, and we should hold at least an 8-card fit. I think the idea here is to find out if we have an 8 or 9-card diamond fit for further action, and I think the only way to do that is with a 2NT bid.

 

I think the question to answer here is what should we do over 3H, not 2H.

[MrAce]

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.

 

I think the question to answer here is what should we do over 3H, not 2H.

 

 

Nope, what to do over 3♥ is easy. You PASS!

Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks?

People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him ffs! http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[Winstonm]

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.

 

 

 

 

Nope, what to do over 3♥ is easy. You PASS!

Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks?

People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him ffs! http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

Points, schmoints. :P If pard has 4 diamonds, there are 18 total tricks. :o

[MrAce]

Points, schmoints. :P If pard has 4 diamonds, there are 18 total tricks. :o

 

Pd will not have 4 diamonds but even if he did, your action over 3♥ is clear, especially at these colors.

You will never know if pd has 4 diamonds or not. You will also never know whether they have 9 cards ♥ fit or not. and even if it was guaranteed that everyone has 9 trumps, 18 trumps is ok to bid 3 over 3 but not 4 over 3. You are committing yourself to zero or top at MP and risking a huge number in partscore competition at IMPs. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

Stay away from D.T, you started to sound like him!http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

[0deary]

No Norths H jump overcall in second so I’d like to have zapped their 2H* by converting partners co-operative double to penalties by passing, but I’m 2+ defensive tricks short so it has to be 2S or 3D

 

Both bid allows 3H in by South by some sort of part fit in H but if so they are welcome: raising partners balancing bid is losing bridge

 

And for sure in both 2S and 3D we absolutely need to make them

 

2S: in M we might pinch an imp compared to m. We keep the level slightly lower. We know we have a S 5-2 fit and we cannot guarantee a better fit in D

 

3D: weaker hand has the trumps so might play better. Don’t like strong hand on the table but might not matter if North is based mainly heart tricks

 

Sort of feel 2S could be a struggle because I have no ruffing shape in dummy

 

Can make 2S if we have a D fit too. If so...let’s go there anyway-3D is safest choice for me

[PhilG007]

I was watching a genuine level expert game on BBO a few days ago, and whilst the bidding for the games and slams is good to watch I actually prefer the part score struggles. This one had the added factor of being vulnerable against non-vulnerable. What is the best bid?

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s62h985daq863cj76&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1sp1npp2hppdp]133|200[/hv]

 

Edit: This is IMP teams

 

This is tricky ground Partner has doubled sending the message "They can't make it!" If you pull the double then effectively

you are saying to your partner that he's/she's a liar and you don't trust them. If it transpires the double was justified then

you are going to sour relationships between you for a considerable time. Partner,however,suspect,must be given the benefit of the doubt

so the correct action is to PASS. If it goes pear-shaped you can always read partner the riot act later(!) :lol:

[JanisW]

IMHO those who believe pd can have 5431 (any), should go to B/N forums and restart their bridge education,before deciding to hang around expert forum.

 

 

Several posters stated that 5134 is possible. And IMHO it really is if both long suits are terrible the singleton is an A with some more points in the 3 card suit.

♠Qxxxx,♥A,♦Jxxx,♣KQx comes to mind. Where I surely do not want to hear 2♠ from a 2425 hand when 1NT might have been cold and 2♠ is wide open.

 

But as I have to admit that I am no expert I surely can be convinced that you should always rebid 2 ♦. But I would ask you to give some explanations instead of simply stating as a fact...

 

The other reason I'm advocating that this might be a 5134 hand where P chose to take an unusual pass instead of 2m is that the double just works better with 5134 hands. Firstly because your shooting at a wider target HCPwise. A 5233 holding more or less has to have 14/bad15 HCP for the double, possibly ♠AJxxx,♥xx,♦Kxx,♣AQx. And secondly with the given examplary hand, the expert would have had taken the decission to likely compete to 3m vulnerable on a partscore deal. Where it is much more unclear whether the opps stopped in a fit (compared to 5134) and an own fit is no given. How likely is that?

 

I strongly disagree that X can be for penalties. If you set them by 1 trick you gained 50, but if you fail to set them you will convert -110 into -470 at IMPs. Not possible

 

regards

JW

[Tramticket]

This is tricky ground Partner has doubled sending the message "They can't make it!" If you pull the double then effectively

you are saying to your partner that he's/she's a liar and you don't trust them. If it transpires the double was justified then

you are going to sour relationships between you for a considerable time. Partner,however,suspect,must be given the benefit of the doubt

so the correct action is to PASS. If it goes pear-shaped you can always read partner the riot act later(!) :lol:

 

This is nonsense of course.

 

(1) The double is not for penalty. How can you have a hand that was not worth a 2♥ bid on the last round and is now worth a penalty double of the opponents' hearts?

(2) Even if, in some strange world, you played the double as penalty the implication that you are calling partner a liar if you pull their penalty double is ridiculous. You said something similar here and I let it pass. Doubling for penalties should be based on cooperation, not a one-sided decision by one partner. If you never allow your partner to pull a penalty double (and use terms like "liar" and "reading the riot act" in the process), your double will need to be rock solid and you will never make enough penalty doubles.

[nekthen]

We really need to know what system these experts are playing. The 1N bid is not forcing apparently, which rules out 2/1. For all we know, they were playing 4 card majors, which puts a different spin on the whole question

[FelicityR]

We really need to know what system these experts are playing. The 1N bid is not forcing apparently, which rules out 2/1. For all we know, they were playing 4 card majors, which puts a different spin on the whole question

 

The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1

[Cyberyeti]

The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1

 

Don't specifically know 2/1, but I can remember in the variant of precision I played you rebid 2♣.

[heart76]

The off-topic first. I am not an expert but I'm posting since the topic is interesting :)

 

When you say the hand was played by experts, I feel I have to assume that a 15-17 HCP 5332 would have opened 1NT, or that they are using another range for that opening.

With at least 15 and a 5-4+, he would not pass 1NT, so he is limited to 14, and he would not have 6♠ or a shape with a singleton, since that would move away from NT anyway (someone disagrees above).

So I place W with 5-2-3-3 or 5-2-(42), which is probably 5-2-2-4. 1NT is a fine place to be most of the time.

But the more I think of it, the less I can figure out why one would takeout over their 2♥ at IMPs without a singleton there, which leads me to think that his pass over 1NT was some kind of a gamble.

That's probably one of the reasons why I'm not an expert :)

 

However, I like the reasoning of JanisW in her (?) first post, i.e. that a combined 7-trump suit would work better in ♦ than in ♠ as you ruff ♥ from the right side.

I think I would have bid 2♠, unless JanisW reasoning would have gotten to me too before clicking.

[heart76]

The partnership I assume are playing five card majors. There was nothing to suggest otherwise. One was British, the other American. Which begs the question if 1NT is forcing, what does partner do with a 5233 minimum hand? Sorry i don't know all the intricacies of 2/1

 

The "1NT 100% forcing" version of 2/1 rebids in a 3-card suit. The "1NT semi-forcing" version lets you pass with a dreadful 5332.

[diana_eva]

I'll spoil the fun here. The hand was played by an ad-hoc partnership. One played 2/1, the other did not. "Genuine expert level game" means JEC match, with NS JEC and Lauria, but EW were two forumers playing together for the first time.

[PhilG007]

This is nonsense of course.

 

(1) The double is not for penalty. How can you have a hand that was not worth a 2♥ bid on the last round and is now worth a penalty double of the opponents' hearts?

(2) Even if, in some strange world, you played the double as penalty the implication that you are calling partner a liar if you pull their penalty double is ridiculous. You said something similar here and I let it pass. Doubling for penalties should be based on cooperation, not a one-sided decision by one partner. If you never allow your partner to pull a penalty double (and use terms like "liar" and "reading the riot act" in the process), your double will need to be rock solid and you will never make enough penalty doubles.

 

Many moons ago as a novice I took lessons from a very famous bridge player and author Hugh Kelsey He was asked how can you tell when a double

is for take out and when for penalties? I will never forget his reply "You can never muddle the two doubles. A double is always for takeout

when partner has not previously bid However if partner HAS already bid then any subsequent double is for penalties" In the OP West has opened the

bidding and,since East has responded,West's double of 2♥ MUST be for business. It is so, it cannot be otherwise

[Joe_Old]

Many moons ago as a novice I took lessons from a very famous bridge player and author Hugh Kelsey He was asked how can you tell when a double

is for take out and when for penalties? I will never forget his reply "You can never muddle the two doubles. A double is always for takeout

when partner has not previously bid However if partner HAS already bid then any subsequent double is for penalties" In the OP West has opened the

bidding and,since East has responded,West's double of 2♥ MUST be for business. It is so, it cannot be otherwise

 

Maybe that was true 50 years ago, but I doubt it. It certainly wasn't true in the U.S. I'm also willing to say that your comment isn't true anywhere at this time.

 

Kelsey is a bridge God. Sadly, man is fallible, and oft times misinterprets God's word.

 

True, there once was a time, in the Dark Ages before negative doubles, when essentially all doubles were for penalties. Now, I can think of only two situations where low level doubles are for business. This isn't one of them.

 

Hint: if everyone else, including some excellent players, are treating this double as takeout, it's probably you who is in a "muddle".

[GrahamJson]

I must admit that I cannot imagine any hand with which you would pass over 1NT but would double 2H. Having said that, the double must be for take out so I’ll take it out into my longest suit. So 3D it is. Now I anticipate that we will be told that the doubler holds Axxxx KQJ xx Axx and intended the double to be cooperative; pass with some defence, take out with offence.

 

Whatever the result, I’ll ask partner not to put me under pressure like this again.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 2 ♠. It'll force opponents to 3 level if they want to compete further and keeps our level as low as possible on a part score hand.